In this episode of Exploring Solana with Jupiter, Yawn Rong talks about the humble beginnings of StepN, a Web3 lifestyle app that combines SocialFi and GameFi in one. Together with your host, Ben Chow, check out how Yawn and his team started from avid dreamers to successful crypto developers to help you stay inspired with your crypto journey!
[1:23-3:40] The birth of the StepN idea
[3:50-5:11] GameFi vs Game like
[5:28-7:36] Were people immediately interested in StepN?
[9:49-14:51] The challenges of GameFi development
[17:52-21:42] On project sustenance and longevity
[21:44-23:11] The origin of the two token system
[23:23- 26:52] Balance
[37:09-41:01] Anti-cheating mechanics of StepN
[47:29-48:57] The strategy? Failure is not an option.
[00:00:00] VO: Hi, welcome to Exploring Solana with Jupiter. I’m Ben Chow, one of the co-founders of Jupiter and the host of this podcast. For those who don’t know, Jupiter is the key swap aggregator and infrastructure on Solana. Giving you the best price swaps for any token, and with almost 10 billion in trade volume and representing 2% of Solana’s daily transactions, we are one of the most popular DeFi protocols on Solana.
[00:00:25] So in the same A series, we’ll talk with key crypto folks in the Solana ecosystem and deep dive into the important topics, prompt and stories of today.
[00:00:34] Ben: Hey Yawn, how you doing?
[00:00:35] Yawn: Aye, man. I’m doing good, what’s up?
[00:00:36] Ben: I’m doing well, man. Doing, doing really well. Thank you for, uh, thank you for joining us. Super excited. I think we’ve had an incredible response from the community on, uh, on you guys. You guys are, you guys are killers.
[00:00:49] Yawn: And also, um, I just canceled my meeting after this, so, uh, we can go over now. That’s okay.
[00:00:56] Ben: Oh, awesome, man. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
[00:00:58] Yawn: No worries.
[00:00:59] Ben: Yeah. Apologies for the confusion. Cool. Well, I think we have a really fun session. Today, we’ve got a number of giveaways, of prizes, and some really awesome questions from the community.
[00:01:10] So, so why don’t we kick it off and get started? Basically, um, I start all RMAs with asking kind of the same question. Uh, we would love to hear a little bit about your background and maybe how you got started StepN.
[00:01:23] Yawn: Sure. So I start off doing a series of, sort of startups starting from 2010. So I’ve been doing a bit of retailing, wholesaling, starting my own brand. And, you know, grow the business. So I think we grow roughly to a mid-sized business. Uh, you know, certainly I would hire about around 350 people roughly, and we have around 40 different collabs, including warehousing, retailing, food, and beverages. So the range of business, uh, we built, uh, up until 2017, I sort of learned about Bitcoin cryptos and sort of jump in the rabbit hole and see the opportunities and start my own crypto power.
[00:02:03] So, we run the phones for about three years with the OTC, Bitcoin mining, mining, liquidity mining, pretty much with everything, you know, primary market and secondary market. So we do everything that, you know, we can make money. So, uh, so all the way until, around uh, late last year I was having a beer with my neighbor, Jerry and Jerry’s is building games since 2008.
[00:02:25] And, you know, we normally talk about cryptos, and tech- related topic. And then somehow we talk about axie and we just thought, you know, we should do something together and we then explore on what we’re going to do and we find the move to earn, you know, that’s around August last year. So nobody started, moved their, sort of a project.
[00:02:47] And there was in "Hold on a second. That’s pretty unique. You can break out from the sort of play to earn and sit in front of the computer. And especially that, uh, it was having like a meltable lockdowns in Australia that, uh, people just really want to get out. So we sort of learn a little bit from that. Also, we also didn’t lock in our house for a couple of days and really want to get out.
[00:03:11] So let’s just do something like that. So, you know, we merged our two pieces together and we formed the company called the Find Satoshi Lab. And, uh, initially we went on to, we wanted to do like, a GameFi but then we realized that the GameFi have some shortcomings and we started to sort of evolve, uh, up until now, we are like, uh, doing it like a game- like app with a canine sort of element.
[00:03:35] And we gonna keep building, adding more features and infrastructures down the track.
[00:03:41] Ben: Awesome. I really liked, I’m kind of curious. What do you mean when you say GameFi versus game-like? Do you see StepN more or less as a game then?
[00:03:50] Yawn: So GameFi then so when we talk about game, you know, normally [it has] a narrative, right?
[00:03:56] You’ll have a protagonist and, you know, you have come to a mission of saving the world in most cases, or like uh, killing the enemies. You have to have some sort of scene. You have to have some sort of narrative and the, uh, equipment and then sort of, you have to actually, um, uh, sort of maneuver in the game environment.
[00:04:14] So that’s what we call a game. So doesn’t matter [if] it’s a RPG or like a shooting game. You have to have all of these. And when we talk about a game-like app, you extract you actually, um, you’re not going to have a narrative. There is no very sort of a heavy, sort of a maneuver where you just have a NFT, like an item, and then you sort of upgrade this item, you know, be part of the game play.
[00:04:39] And, uh, you know, I was saying it’s really intuitive. So that’s sort of what we call a game- like app. You still have, you know, like upgrading, you know, they have a lab, you still have that, but, uh, everybody can understand the concept. You know, you don’t have to explain to people why you need to level up why this is like a actually good point, but, uh, you don’t have to really, to learn and master it.
[00:05:00] You know, with many games that I, World of Warcraft, you’re probably going to take years master class, and then I’ve got to in that arena, killing people, but with our app, there’s, you don’t need to have that level of, uh, skillset.
[00:05:13] Ben: That’s really true. I guess part of it is just basically just getting people moving and running, right?
[00:05:18] Yawn: Yes. And then you have to provide, uh, you know, really, incentivize them to go out by basically giving them tokens and a reward and reinforce that behavior.
[00:05:28] Ben: That’s awesome, man. That’s really cool. So I’m kind of curious, like, what was it like in the very beginning? I mean, did you, when you first launched, did you see sort of the level of interest that you’re seeing now, or, you know, can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:05:41] Yawn: Yeah. So, you know, it’s actually a little bit embarrassing because, uh, you know, I have been doing investment in this space for a couple of years. And you know, we have business and we seized our shared deal flows. And when we tell them that I’m going to do a project, I was like, oh, that’s right. You know, we’re gonna invest in you guys.
[00:05:58] And then actually, I did the pitch and, nobody [wanted] to invest. And, uh, um, they think the app is too niche. And because, you know, that’s, I think it’s a forced sort of a hurdle, you know, like, a GameFi, you know, fitness. That’s naturally various, you know, you’re targeting a gamer that also do sports, you know, that’s not, not a lot of people. Especially that is crypto related products, you probably don’t talk about like Solana players.
[00:06:26] So I think intuitively people think this is a very niche product. And also axie, it was a little bit on the down trend. So people are very skeptical of, you know, with GameFi, especially, you know, uh, we used to do a token system that, uh, you know, the test barrel people talk about that.
[00:06:43] So it was a bad timing for us, actually. And also particularly for what we’re trying to do is very difficult because you have to use, uh, you have actually integrate everything, you know, into, into the mobile. That’s something that, you know, we haven’t seen anything like that, you know, back in around last year. And, uh, I think people don’t think we can do it and also think that the concept is very niche, and also that some people are growing a little bit concerned on the, you know, the axie and GameFi is, especially that, uh, everybody believes this is toward the end of the bull market. And nobody invests in the program because you are talking about like, you have traded valuation and uncertainty. When the token came out, you know, we probably going to get into the ballpark as our peer markets. So there’s a lot of concerns on the start.
[00:07:27] So initially we were getting very little traction and, uh, up until I think when we, when the Hackathon we started to get a bit of tractions of bootstrapping on the users.
[00:07:37] Ben: Oh, so that’s interesting. So the hackathon was a turning point for you guys.
[00:07:41] Yawn: Yeah. So I think, uh, you know, we were quite lucky because when we decided we’re actually deciding on which blockchain to pick, you know, have to have some infrastructures, have to have the NFT protocol, I some are cheap to do transaction, so we sort of need to decide between the Algoran and Solana and then, uh, with Algoran, we think that, uh, although the technology is pretty good, but, uh, we don’t know how much support we can get from the ecosystem.
[00:08:08] And also just when we try and decide, then we’ve discovered Solana have a hacker zone And I say, “Okay, let’s try Solana.” Because, you know, if we, you know, if we can win some sort of position, maybe work at some exposures and which we did.
[00:08:21] Ben: That’s awesome. So, I mean, beyond the hackathon exposure, did you feel any other, were there any other benefits to, you know, being on Solana or anything surprising or helpful to you?
[00:08:31] Yawn: I think the community helped us a lot. I mean, Solana have a lot of people that, and, you know, lots of games actually doing their projects, Solana.
[00:08:40] So naturally there are a bunch of gamers, uh, on Solana and they w- they actually do crave for Solana games because really, you know, I think at that time when we, we have developed sort of a playable product, then there are many [games] that basically been pretty big, but they hadn’t released the product yet.
[00:09:01] So, you know, people actually just, were eager to have some simple play on Solana because we remember quite clearly that we want to do some, you know, case study and we didn’t find ANIMA actually released a functional product as Solana, around late of last year around that timeframe.
[00:09:18] Ben: Yeah. I mean, by the way, I have a background in gaming and doing a game is really hard so it’s kind of interesting. I think you found a really nice sweet spot where like, by, by being game-like versus sort of, as you said, like a sort of GameFi where you have to build a whole narrative and a whole world, which I think also increases the scope of development. I think you’ve found a really nice sweet spot where you can, you know, combine, I’m sure there was enough challenges in terms of even just bringing a lot of the on chain stuff into mobile.
[00:09:47] So that’s cool. Oh, go ahead.
[00:09:49] Yawn: Yeah. Sorry. Uh, I think we were quite sort of fortunate, I think because, you know, because one is to do a product, you know, in this end of the bull market or bull cycle is quite challenging because people are questioning your evaluation and people will have a pretty pessimistic forecast of what going to happen in the near future.
[00:10:11] Especially, you know, towards the end of last year, people would talk about tapering, you know, the, the interest hike. You know, like this is the end of the world and, uh, everybody stopped investing. So, uh, to really, to get the product out as soon as possible. So that way you can just catch that, you know, the end of that bull market.
[00:10:28] And we, we decided to drop everything, you know, very simple graphic, no narrative, you know, with game, you normally will come with like a again, uh, developed plan, you know, is GDP. And, uh, in this, you know, the development plan and you actually outlined you know, very detailed about what we’re gonna do. But we didn’t do that because we don’t have time.
[00:10:47] So we rush everything just trying to catch up and, uh, uh, constant pivot. So actually that I think saved us because we pick a entirely different route pushing a game-like app, because we want to go to market first and then sort of, uh, enable us to really, really fast to bootstrap and pivot.
[00:11:05] Ben: So if I hear this right, basically because of the timing in the market, and it was harder to fundraise, you just basically moved into like, let’s-build-this-and-ship-it-out mode.
[00:11:14] And was it the Hackathon itself that sort of got you the initial users? I mean, how did, uh, I mean, I’m just so impressed by the massive upswell of people who have come on. Were you surprised by that? Did you do certain things to kind of promote that growth?
[00:11:31] Yawn: I think this is almost like, uh, we’ll talk about like, uh, railways, right?
[00:11:35] You know, the train, especially like a steam one, right. So normally we start off slow, but when we turn, starting to accelerate, we cannot stop. We really struggled, I think, in the beginning to get users. And even with, we did a lot of like a keyboard base, you know, keyboard like iPhone, you know, people that participate the, their friends under, after we did the NFTs. When we started to give away NFTs, you know, the, the sneakers, Genesis sneakers out and we see a little effect and, uh, then we basically studied and, uh, we don’t push out this queue system.
[00:12:10] And that’s roughly when we have, when the Hackathon and there, we started to see actually some genuine people get interested in our project. So they started to follow and, and we use the, uh, you know, the, you need runner role. So we have that role, which you have any advice for friends and, uh, you then be able to answer questions, quiz.
[00:12:31] And then you’ve got the quiz, right? You win a sneaker. Most people will basically list it down, even us, try to sell it. Back in one Sol, something like that. But that actually gives the actual potential users the opportunity to buy fight from one to one Sol. I think the price fluctuate around 0.9 Sol to 1.2 sol.
[00:12:50] And that’s from December-ish. And then we, sorry, that’s around the November-ish not for December, and then, uh, we just quickly trying to really just build the stuff and, uh, you know, just be with the compare minimums, the skeleton, which is basically the mood, color and function. And then we basically, uh, get it up and running and then people can actually use it.
[00:13:12] And then they’d be able to start on the GST. And then, you know, because really there’s such a small user base because we started just [with] giveaways, you know, quiz and there’s no sell pressures and people have like uh, next to zero expectation. And that’s also the power of that, uh, save us and also distinguish us from other sort of GameFi, because if you sell NFTs, you will, when you release your app, you will have like thousands of players find and, get the returns, you know, kind of investment back.
[00:13:44] But we only start with like 20 sneakers or 30 sneakers. And, uh, we were able to make the market afloat and then give away more, give away more and then to expand and fix parts along the way. So we start really light-bodied, you know, there was no, or little sell pressures. People have zero expectations, you know, they have no hurry to sell their, uh, full camate because they got a sneaker for free or like a really cheap, like one sol or something like that.
[00:14:14] So, Um, I think with absolutely zero cell pressure in the beginning and a very, uh, low expectation and then we started to grow the user base by just giving away more. Uh, we’re started to build a functional community because I think for a month or so, the whole community was really chaotic. You know, we have like a people trying to win the quiz and scam the server, you know, we’ll have to read it to, you know, come down to manage that.
[00:14:41] And our community manager Grace, have done excellent job and put everything in order. So yeah, we have a lot of people that help us out on the line and, uh, really to push them forward.
[00:14:52] Ben: Yeah, community is so important. I completely agree. I’m just curious. So are you saying it in a timeline of things you have the NFT collection before the app was launched, right?
[00:15:03] Yawn: Currently. And so, we have to close beta, but close with how we actually raised our NFTs and then, so right after the closed beta, we released NFTs and, uh, for two weeks and, uh, because we need to get ready for the public beta. So we’ll pause the game for two weeks so that people can start feeding NFT, you know, change hands if they need.
[00:15:26] And then we just basically give away like a 25 to a hundred and every day, uh, by doing quiz, I think we’re doing hourly quiz. So each hour people can win one free sneakers. And then we also do make giveaway. I think these were like Sri ,AMA, and then I have other sort of quizzes and stuff like that. So, you know, yeah.
[00:15:44] We will give it away like a couple of thousand in the first couple of weeks. And then we’re starting to slow down, giving away the sneakers because people can start minting. Right. Once they start minting, uh, we don’t really need to put a lot of the, we encourage them to mint.
[00:16:00] Speaker 1: Oh, that makes sense. That makes sense.
[00:16:02] Ben: And that’s interesting. So you’re saying, because maybe in that very beginning, there was low expectations
[00:16:08] Speaker 1: and, uh, you know, no cell pressure you think giving away these NFTs was a way to build and through the quizzes was a way to build up a really organic base of supporters that just like what you’re doing is that what you’re saying?.
[00:16:20] Yawn: Yes, because, uh, I actually forced them to, uh, learn how, you know, learn the white paper. You actually helped them to have a better understanding because they have to really remember, you know, all the numbers inside out, you know, these are popup quiz; you have to be fast. And, uh, we actually have educated people, you know, all the mechanics, I know what the, uh, the data, you know, people know things, uh, is that because you will count as win, right?
[00:16:46] You have to try several times to win. So in that sense, you know, people get really familiar with how the app works. And, uh, you know, for people that didn’t win a sneaker, they probably end up buying one off the market place, you know, far medicated. So, uh, I think it’s, it’s a very good, I think I educational program.
[00:17:06] Speaker 1: Amazing. Amazing.
[00:17:07] Ben: I’m going to switch it up and ask a couple of questions that the community has. Some of these seem pretty in depth. So this one seems like I’m going to throw out a, uh, a hard one, so jive- and apologies jive, uh, if I pronounced your handle wrong- but jivegrimms asks um, first of all, congratulations on the success of StepN. It’s not a lie that the adoption of the StepN idea has been massive and people now want to lead a healthy life. At least for the sake of the incentive that [it] comes with. But then all hype dies down at some point. What is the project devs doing to ensure the sustenance and longevity of the project and in a situation where the hype is no more, what plan has been put in place to read? Well, I think it’s the same question.
[00:17:52] Yawn: So people [are] asking the same question quite a lot. And, uh, I think, uh, yes, so I touched bases on this several times. So, uh, on the longevity of the project. Uh, one thing that we want to run the project is one, to run it like a country. By running a country, you need to consider, you need to have a central bank.
[00:18:12] Uh, you need to actually oversee the economy. And we have [to] constantly tweak the numbers in the app to reflect and to balance the tokens between the GST and GMT, and also between the CIC and the, um, the sneakers. And also with other country, we need to constantly build infrastructures and there was new infrastructures come with new need and with new need, people, well, spend on these infrastructures and then that query values and also network effect. So that’s the reason that, uh, you know, uh, the move to earn is just one adamant I think for what we found to build and we want to build, let’s say more in the future, for example, you know, we want to build a, uh, like a podcast platform, you know, NFT platform, a fair launch platform, and eventually get into a Web3 socials.
[00:19:04] As long as we keep building and add value to the GMT, you will constantly see that the StepN lab we’re, more like a living organism. So we will come in different stage, you know, in the lifespan of the app. It’s like a caterpillar, right? So, uh, you know, you have, uh, have the pillar, you have the cocoon and then have the fly.
[00:19:27] So in different stage, we’ll try and focus on different things and trying to turn from different audience. So only with that in mind, uh, you can counsel me to adapt to the external environment. And then basically it’s tribe, especially when bull market comes. So that’s to do with the curriculum that the longevity of the app.
[00:19:47] And then going back on the token wise, and I think another sort of implication for this kind of question is what happened if the user is starting to slow down, you know, the growth? People have been poking the cultures, axie infinity multiple times. You know the same question is that what happens if the token go into like a death spiral?
[00:20:08] So to address that we, are using the dual token system and we’re addressing what Axie didn’t do well, which is to, with their governance token is only an hour fractional people earning that. I think a thousand though, the player ranked the top on the PUPI leaderboard. And because of that, it doesn’t create a balance.
[00:20:29] What we’re trying to create is the balance between the GST and GMT. I think one thing people questioned the most is what happened because the GST is a unlimited supply. You know, I, some stages that has to get into the inflation. So our solution to that is, once people reach into the top level, which 30, they will be more enticed to earn the GMT.
[00:20:54] So the GMT become the balancer of the GST. And because gems, you have always halfing mechanics, you know, difficult bull mechanics. So that’s, uh, you won’t get him more scared over the time. So as we create more use features of the GMT, and eventually we believe that GMT value or, well, I, at least I’m probably the GST. So people have to make the choice at the 30 of which told him they’re gonna make.
[00:21:19] You’ve promoted people and reminded them of GMT, they’re going to switch with the GST. I have too many people met in the GST. No. And you’ve had people, men of GMT and then medium that people might have jammed GMT the most. And then people have social work without the side. So you’re constantly sort of balanced people around what they earn.
[00:21:36] And eventually people want to own a GMT because it’s a finite supply, which will make the infinite supply of JIT irrelevant.
[00:21:44] Speaker 1: Actually, do you mind if we step back a little bit, I’m curious about the origins of this two token system. Like, why did you decide on this two token systems and what benefits does it have or, or maybe even a trade offs that you had to make versus say, you know, another type of system?
[00:21:58] Yawn: I think it’s excellent model. I mean, when we see them for the two token system, you know, we actually use any lack that here, you know, quote to the Delta, we could sign it. Because I think one pinpoint, especially coming from the last crypto cycle from 2017 to 2019, is that people trying to use one token for everything. You know, they claim that they trying to have one token to do the governance, the utility, you know, it doesn’t work. I think it makes a lot of sense that you want to have a token just so that people can use it and to come spend it. And then you want to have another sort of a scared supply token for other important things. So, you know, going to worldwide game design, you know, typical, um, uh, mobile game, you’re looking at like, uh, like a gold coin system and then like a diamond system.
[00:22:52] So that is sort of the same analogy. So that’s the same that we’re trying to, uh, make is to have this type of arrangement. You know, you have something that, uh, super rare and, uh, you know, only be useful in important scenario. And then you have to sort of another line just spend out utility purposes.
[00:23:12] Speaker 1: Got it. And what, what, uh, what are the really important things you have you’re thinking about in terms of, with maybe in the future, or whatever’s coming up?
[00:23:23] Yawn: The important thing I think is always come to, how can we restore the balance between the sneakers, um, the full price and our GST and, uh, GMT. So we have done a, uh, several changes on the main cost, uh, because, uh, we want to restore the balance.
[00:23:43] And, uh, I think, you know, when it come to gain, you have to really constantly to monitor performance and also adjust, you know, the data if needed because, um, you have to restore balance because when people find that they’re going to make a lot of money by meeting stakeholders and they’re going to do it, and then that will cause the price to, um, you know, the, the, the JSE got into high because most people are buying up and then mint sneakers.
[00:24:11] So that’s the new people can come, buy sneakers, but if we push the price too high and then that will actually discourage the user onboarding. So that’s, that’s when we assign it to a switch, you know, the GSE is a more, a less expensive GMT. So that’s sort of kill two birds with one stone. So we burn it more GMP and we also have lower the cost.
[00:24:33] Ensuring that the new user on board at a lower price. So that’s just one example that, uh, balancing is the most important thing. And the balancing require a lot of how it works because we need to be really, really hands on deck, but it is really important to do it because sometimes you have to actually react sort of proactively.
[00:24:56] And, uh, if you play, uh, sort of rapidly, uh, response to many things, uh, we will actually be more having a, sort of a difficult time to assess.
[00:25:07] Ben: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, well, balancing any took economics, I think is a sort of the economic systems that you’re building out, like is a hard thing, I guess it sounds like part of that balance is to try to make sure that it’s all the game is always accessible to new users.
[00:25:21] And then also, but also rewarding for people who have, you know, invested time. Is that, is that kind of at a high level?
[00:25:28] Yawn: Uh, yes and no. So it’s balancing is both in and outside of the act. So in the act, we’re balancing around supply and demand of sneakers and GST and GMT and outside game we are actually balancing around between the activation code so that we allow a fraction of users to the app, so that, uh, is not getting crazy.
[00:25:52] You know, we see what happened to the clubhouse, you know, still, you know, influx of people, like a, many of them like are awake. And then, so at the moment, So we rather to want to do it on a healthy way that we will sort of slowly funnel the user into the app so that, you know, they have to work on their activation code.
[00:26:12] You know, they have to know somebody and when they know somebody they’re going to encounter in different questions or issues. Because, you know, when, uh, when I talk about a web tool onboarding, they’re going to need somebody holding their hand and say, okay, this is how it’s set up about what it is, how you buy a Solana, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:26:28] So to explain to them how, what it works and how casts works. So without people teaching them, they’ve all really soon getting really frustrating. And then they’re probably going to leave us a one star review so that it seems we don’t want to get. So really to limit it, you know, having the balance between the influx of the user and also a balance between, you know, the GST, GMT and the sneakers in and out, you know, it has to be both valid.
[00:26:53] Speaker 1: That’s a really smart idea. So actually it seems like that I was going to ask you about the activation codes, but it’s, it sounds like it’s both as a way to kind of curb like. Like just a huge spike in growth to make it more manageable, not, but then also what a great way to, you know, for other people to help onboard each other.
[00:27:11] And, and it, it sounds like actually, maybe even in the running category, it’s nice to have some social peers to, to help you, you know, help you along too. But, um, yeah, I mean-
[00:27:25] Ben: All right, I’m going to, I’m going to switch it up to an easy, an easy question from someone from our community. Preta asks, what’s the funniest thing that has happened to you since working on step up.
[00:27:37] Yawn: Funny thing. I, I can only think about the sad things
[00:27:44] I think these a funny way because, uh, you know, like the craze that’s, uh, you know, my, my suffering will be somebody else enjoyment, right? So, you know, it’s thinking about that way, you know? So I think, you know, the funny way is that when we first think about doing this move, there are especially move through outdoors and with Solana’s gonna pass all the running apps.
[00:28:05] Yeah. And uh, then to the point that, uh, I suffered a appendicitis attack and it has to be hospitalized. And then I ended up having a major operation and remove part of my colon. Uh, also my appendix, then I was sort of on the back on the hospital bed for about seven days.
[00:28:25] Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
[00:28:30] Yawn: Uh, I think our October, so then Jeremy couldn’t find me for like, uh, for a day and then what happened and then call my wife. And then my wife told him that I was subscribing to a hospital. And what especially said was that, uh, I think I have some sort of a cramp and then I think I eat on the Friday and then I still have like a fever and, uh, again, you know, stomach ache on Saturday and now sorta Saturday, the doctor doesn’t work.
[00:29:00] I have to call home doctor. We shall not want to eat in the afternoon. And they say, okay, you’ve got appendicitis. You have to go to the hospital. And, uh, I haven’t eaten much in that two days. And then I called the ambulance, just took about four hours arrive. And when I got into the hospital, you right at 10 o’clock in the evening, I was starving to death.
[00:29:18] I was so hungry and a doctor says, okay, you can’t eat anything can only drink water. And then the next day I got into the operation theater, no food in the morning and then wake up six hours later because the doctor said if he saw it is like a keyhole oppression, just remove appendix. And that my appendix will stick to my colon.
[00:29:39] So they have to actually coming up and remove that whole part. Then he said, okay, you can’t eat for another day. So I will literally, I didn’t eat anything for five days. And, uh, I was so hungry. And so weak, I think, and then when I was allowed to eat, I think the 14th day, you know, just, uh, plain bread and it was the best thing I’ve eaten.
[00:30:06] Speaker 1: Plain bread. I think anything at that point is delicious. I’ve actually been there a few times, and that’s not as bad as you, not as bad as you, but anything you put in your mouth at that point, it’s like, like heaven. Hopefully you had something a lot better than bread after that, but yeah. Awesome. Cool. Why don’t we take this time to, uh, let me ask a few other questions from the community.
[00:30:34] We actually have a few people who’ve requested. So what I might do, we don’t normally do this, but I’ll invite someone up on the Twitter spaces to ask a question. So let’s say, there’s many questions from Nico. So he has a sort of a detailed question, I guess they’re asking, like, you know, why is transferring back and forth between spending and wallet, well, they say painful, but you know, maybe it’s not as ideal. Is it blockchain related or is the Oracle backend hasn’t scaled up?
[00:31:04] Yawn: Okay. So let me explain how Solana works. So Savannah doesn’t work like a serums, right? You extend from address, address, because a woman has the spending account. Uh, in fact, uh, many, many sub-accounts and you have these transferring from what essentially wallet to your particularly a sub-account and there could be tens of thousands of them.
[00:31:24] And, uh, the way, Solana work is that when you are trying to send from wallet to spending account, then you are scan all the spending account type accounts until we fund your account and then make that transactions. So that make internal transfer within Solana SAP addresses or extremely alone the waiting time, because I have to stand the whole list of sub-accounts and we are working just today, trying to gain more sort of, uh, uh, no set up, um, to make more dynamic transactions.
[00:32:01] And those are how it’s gonna work, it is that it doesn’t have a fee market place. By a fee marketplace is, uh, when you’re sending, let’s say serums from one address to. Especially that you’re kind of meat, right? You, you app your gas feed so that your transaction can be processed the first and the Solana doesn’t work that way. You will share one common fee and everybody are competing for, to be included in sort of the, the blockhead and you feel didn’t unfortunately you feel, uh, missing out on that, you’re missing out. Right? So, so that’s the reason that you probably will sign several transactions. The first one, didn’t arrive for three hours.
[00:32:41] And then the one you send later arrived is because that, uh, the first one didn’t get packed and the, the later one got packed. So what did that pack? You got sent over quite quickly, but the book I didn’t pack your data, then you will suffer like a hours of waiting and sometimes the item is just lost in limbo, and then we’ll have to do manual scan and then retrieve that and send it.
[00:33:02] And when we sell again, that could be filed again. I know packing the second day and send it again. So that’s the reason that people find them frustrations where their assets somehow end up missing and then show up maybe 24 hours or 40 hours later is because that particular transactions, if they got knock out impact, as the blockchain can congest it, you lost got loss.
[00:33:24] And then we’ll do it again in a couple hours later. And then you’ve got again. Well, keep trying until it can be a successful package to the blockchain and then send to your address. So it is just the way Solana is designed and basically we’re trying to have multiple dynamic, a note for process. Let’s say one note got really congested, we jumped to another line, it got congested, we jump to the other ones. So in that way, we will have less sort of, uh, transactions got lost or didn’t get packed. So to have that down, we’re probably going to need another couple days. And we’re actually constantly are utilizing, optimizing the scanning. So it used to take hours.
[00:34:06] And now it’s only take about 20 minutes or something like that. And of course there, all of the south address I missed on your transactions and now transactions we’ve found to further optimize that normally take one, two minutes. If it packs successfully, if not, then you sort of have to wait, but we see improvement on the dynamic note that is in, that could be furthermore improved.
[00:34:30] Speaker 1: By the way, we do a lot of, uh, backend optimization as well to get our transactions through. Um, just because all transactions also happen to be heavy. RPC node, uh, balancing is, is one thing, but uh, congestion might not just be at that level too, by the way.
[00:34:49] So, and one thing we had to do is we improved our, uh, after 1.9, we started to be more aggressive about our retry mechanism. So we try a lot more aggressively now than, than before, but it’s an, it’s an ongoing thing. Just, just for annual ways for, for anyone who, you know, like, um, there’s a lot of work and there’s a lot of changes that Solana is making.
[00:35:11] And, you know, in order to help improve congestion, but then it also just changes how things work and we have to adapt to try to, you know, some things, some things get slower. Like I think GPA would you guys probably utilize a lot, just scan through all those accounts is, is, uh, is not as performing as it used to be.
[00:35:28] Yawn: Yeah. We have the processor of 500,000 transaction on daily basis. And, uh, normally we see around 10,000 or 20,000 got stuck and they have to be processed.
[00:35:41] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. You know, actually on that topic of technology would love to understand, you know, where there’s some really unique or interesting things you had to do in terms of, uh, you know, I mean, it seems like you have, you have some anti-cheat protection, uh, to make sure people are actually running. Can you talk a little bit about some of the tech that that’s in, in the, in the app itself or what you had to do?
[00:36:04] Yawn: So I am not a technical person. So everything I speak of could be a little bit wrong, like, you know, to do with a note running and to do the machine learnings. But, uh, we do have particular people in charge of that [who are] expert[s] in this field.
[00:36:19] So I would just repeat what they say you’re lacking in the, in the, in the language and, uh, something like that. So, uh, the anti-cheating is a fundamental part of of our app because only allow people not to cheat, meaning that they actually have to spent energy and the time to go outdoors to earn this token. So this token comes with a cost.
[00:36:45] The cost is your sweat, is your food you ate, is the footwear you wear, and is times you spent and a muscle ache you had after the run. So when something come with a cost and a Bitcoin, you’ll rather not to sell below your perceived cost or values. And for that particular reason, we have to make sure that people are genuinely moving outdoors.
[00:37:09] So that’s the reason I have to do the anti-cheating mechanics. So consider this like a counterfeit money, right? So if you allow people to, you know, uh, simulate an app and then get free tokens that’s like a fake money. So we use several ways to tackle the energy. And this is an ongoing process and some of the mechanic I cannot talk to, because we haven’t rolled it out.
[00:37:32] I can only speak off the scenes that we are actively developing, uh, at the moment. So we’ll use the motion sensor. Uh, to collect the user data. So that include, for example, uh, allegations feed the wavelengths of your movement and then we cross-reference this with your GPS style. So with machine learning, I think there’s several ways of, uh, compile the data.
[00:37:54] And I think the most effective way is to compile our research into like a vector data and then we’ll compare it to the vector data with normally how a person should move. So you’re looking at a, like a collective data pool of the genuine motion and they’ll compare that. If the data is out, you, then you call it like, you’ll find like a, like a normally, and you will most likely consider it.
[00:38:23] This is like a cheat because in aisle for machine, even when you say copy your actual motion data and just tweaks things here. Uh, the metadata- vector made out of account different, so wouldn’t be able to pick it out and then we’ll be able to do something about that account. So that’s sort of how we do it.
[00:38:47] And we’ll, we’ll, we’ll actually release several articles to explain more how we do the mission. Yeah, so that one hasn’t been out yet, but we try and get it out relatively in the next couple of weeks, because we won’t look at it, right? Because, uh, you know, this is a fine line between identifying somebody cheating because you certainly the ones who sort of, uh, have some kind of collateral damage.
[00:39:12] And, uh, you know, uh, so we need to make sure that the model is absolutely working as intended, and that will take time because you have the feed dollars. So, you know, we are constantly, you know, running and checking and, you know, tweaking the algorithm to make sure that, uh, you know, it’s all working as fine, which will take time.
[00:39:32] Ben: It’s basically, that’s great. I mean, it kind of sounds like basically really cool to hear that you’re using machine learning for this, but it’s not, it sounds like you’re using that data to find sort of what it sounds like, like a fingerprint kind of thing of what, you know, human motion is versus other types of motion.
[00:39:48] And then having that identified, you know, if you’re actually in, you know, in like a humid
[00:39:54] Yawn: People can try it because this is again an ongoing process, because I think around two months ago, people can carry two phones and be able to earn babble. And then, uh, that one then has been identified and then you will show a Moonwalking if you carry a second ball.
[00:40:13] So that’s out of the question and I think for a virus structure, one, my mom’s also people can actually run a bike and check their phone and the guests. And also, I think we see the video of that people shake the phone in the car.
[00:40:29] Shaking the phone on skateboards, shaking the phone at home. Uh, and then I think, uh, soon after we implement, you know, the awkward algorithm, you know, people can’t do that.
[00:40:40] So it’s the psych counselor working at background. You know, we, you know, once we think the algorithm is good enough when you’re only allowed and then what use could be, uh, you know, sort of cheat the system and the longer walks.
[00:40:53] Speaker 1: I actually in my mind, I was, I had this image of like, oh, why don’t cheat the system.
[00:40:58] Why limit to two phones, just tape phones all over your body and stuff.
[00:41:04] But, uh, that might be a fun, fun. You know, I mean, I don’t know if there’s an answer to this question, but someone from the community asked something related, they say personally, they find navigating StepN with their phone is a little bit hard because I guess they’re, they’re in an area with low GPS. So it limits their earnings and any are any thoughts on that scenario or?
[00:41:27] Yawn: I had, because I live where there’s a lot of trees. So every time I get up and leave my GPS, my speed automator actually dropped down. Actually I have to move extra fast under the tree, you know, to maintain my jogger pace. It is very difficult. But it is GPS is really needed in order to make the, and the treating mechanic, uh, functional. There’s no way for us to remove it. And, uh, it is actually unfortunate for people where they have like road GPS signals.
[00:41:58] And, uh, I mean, if the seizure is not allowed it, uh, I, I will say they need to maybe can drive to an area that has a higher GPS signal. Yeah, because we can’t take it out of the equation.
[00:42:10] Ben: Yeah. Makes sense. It makes sense. I’m going to switch to another one. Uh, so someone, uh, let’s see, uh, honeybee says that, you know, recently you guys did an NFT Collab with ASICS, they’re asking, uh, is there a big difference in the value of the ASICS collaboration shoes versus StepN or any differences or benefits and do you plan on doing more collaborations?
[00:42:33] Yawn: Okay. So to answer the second question, yes, definitely. We need to do more collaborations. I think the whole concept for the class. So the whole purpose as in for the collaboration is to strengthen the, you know, the, the StepN as a, as a, like a leading Webster thinker crap.
[00:42:50] And, uh, because I think we, we are the, uh, we were trying to put a utility function to NFTs. And these actually I think work well. Uh, we, um, you know, these sneaker brand company, I mean, Adidas, Nike, you know, I say Puma, they are all sort of a, having a, was trying to have a web story representative. Um, and they are working hard, I think, to find their identity on web story.
[00:43:22] And I think we are in a vertical position to provide not only identity for the report but, also actual function, uh, to their product. So I think it’s a win-win so we will use their brand power to scale our app to what, to, or access, especially the assets. And they will use our platform basically to, uh, to actually make their sneaker, especially the virtual one.
[00:43:53] Um, have a, have a true use for it. I think it’s a win-win. Yeah. And that we’ll be able to leverage that and eventually be the leading sneaker brand, our webstory.
[00:44:04] Speaker 1: That’s crazy. So you were saying like, kind of like, like having like sort of a air Jordan type of success, um, in web three, as a, as a sneaker, as a sneaker brand or what their sneaker brand is?.
[00:44:18] Yawn: Yes, I think, I think for every ecosystem you eventually, I think only the native the crypto native, um, project, well strive in the crypto native ecosystem. It’s like, you know, um, we would talk about eco ecosystem rise or. Uh, you feel Bernie alien sort of, uh, species and, uh, it doesn’t end up well in like a, another sort of ecosystem, you know, talk about sorta, you know, top of cat or rabbit or cactus, but, uh, I think only, I think, uh, you know, the crypto native project able to thrive in the crypto native, uh, sort of environment.
[00:44:58] So you should talk about the web with web story. Yes. They have our B company. Yes. They have have successful and having, you know, their brand image. You know, decades or even hundreds of years. But they’re not crypto native. I think, uh, you know, webseries sort of like an alien war for them. Right. They have to adapt and sometimes they will feel uncomfortable, right? So especially those who travel oversea, you sometimes you’ve got like a, to eat the local food normally and well, so I think it’s sort of a cinematic. Right. So you have to adapt to the webstories. Right. But, uh, you know, we come from the, you know, the local environment, you know, reps are your moment. We should be able to adapt and we should be able to thrive in this place.
[00:45:42] And we always believe that the only equipment native part of that world, thriving equipment, native environment, not somebody that come from another environment, like what to, unless you really want to get into this. And, uh, you know, sort of all the results. Because we’ve seen, you know, this is, I just want to say one more thing, because we have seen these from 2007 to 2008, you know, back then there was a project during the STO, the security token operates.
[00:46:10] And, uh, we have seen it, all products say, okay, let’s just add our product or product. Um, you know, the drop Chan, you know, got the old back down because the bull market team. You know, uh, like retail and physical world where to at their pace, right? So they can now lose their base unless they just want to, you know, sort of keep up every single in the web tool and then move to the website, right?
[00:46:37] I can, you know, uh, exclusive and that’s really rare. And if you, if they didn’t do it successfully, it’s like suicide, all right. So, uh, any, I think I’m saying company, why not do that? You know, because you actually have a sort of a place of full back, you are not really rush. You are not really dedicate everything to make it successful on Webster.
[00:47:00] And that’s sort of the differences we talk about, you know, we have no where to back if we fell, right. So we have to really rush it. You know, we have to really, to the dominate the web story. And, uh, I think that’s the difference, you know, we have nowhere to go except the way.
[00:47:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, uh, you definitely sound like a veteran man. Uh, I think that is pretty much, I think one of the most powerful, uh, traits for startup founders or anyone doing something right, is that like, you know, failure is not an option
[00:47:34] Yawn: That is. Yeah.
[00:47:36] Speaker 1: So, um, you know, and, and that that’s, that’s the best motivation to succeed. Yeah. I completely agree on that. Uh, yeah. L love everything you’re saying. Yeah. I want to ask another, I think another important kind of topic, uh, so that someone is asking, so Moulton from the community is asking, I mean, he’s asking if you, you know, it seems like you’ve also already integrated, uh, As part of, um, StepN, are there any other plans to integrate other chains?
[00:48:04] What is your strategy?
[00:48:06] Yawn: I think the strategy is to one, at least to try to tap into other ecosystems where they are in all of the players, uh, you know, BSE, you have other players, especially for the games. And also we want to tap into the market, you know, the adoption where we have the most anti project. So naturally went on to tap into his service in the field.
[00:48:27] So that’s how we can tap into the, you know, the, the, the blue chip and actually sort of a project. And then we will consider to tap into other sort of IBM type of, uh, ecosystem if we need. So at the moment, I think we’re pretty happy with Solana and PSE, you know, PSE’s where, you know, I think sort of one, there are gamers on there.
[00:48:51] And two, once we can in the PSA, you know, ECM is quite easy. Yeah. So, so, so that’s, that’s the three we are considered animal.
[00:48:58] Ben: Awesome. Awesome.
[00:48:59] I’m Ben Chow, and you’ve been listening to explored Solana with Jupiter. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, subscribe and let us know with rating.
Definition of terms:
- Cryptocurrency - an encrypted data string that denotes a unit of currency
- Solana - fastest blockchain in the world and the fastest growing ecosystem in crypto, with thousands of projects spanning DeFi, NFTs, Web3 and more
- Jupiter - is the key swap aggregator and infrastructure on Solana, giving you the best price swaps for any token
- NFT- are unique cryptographic tokens that exist on a blockchain and cannot be replicated; can represent real-world items like artwork and real estate.
- Bitcoin Mining- is the process of creating new bitcoins by solving extremely complicated math problems that verify transactions in the currency
- Axie- an online game universe revolving around Pokémon-esque creatures known as Axies
- GST- also known as Green Satoshi Token; a Solana token that powers StepN, a Web3 lifestyle app that encourages users to “move-to-earn”
- GMT- a token and it means it is a cryptocurrency, which based its activities on the blockchain of other cryptocurrencies such as Ethereum Blockchain or EOS