Jupiter x Port Finance AMA

Jupiter: the key liquidity aggregator and swap infrastructure for Solana

Jupiter AMA with Gabriel from Port Finance(1/14/22)
Port Finance is a lending protocol that aims to provide an entire suite of fixed income products including variable-rate lending, fixed-rate lending, and interest rate swaps.

AMA Transcript

Ben: 0:02 Alright everyone, let’s get started with our AMA with Port. We have Gabriel, the founder Port with us today.
Gabriel: 0:13 Ben, great to be here.
Ben: 0:15 Yeah. Thanks for joining us. I feel like Kash we’ve been working together for quite it just feels like ages now with crypto. And [unclear 0:30] I know. Yeah. And I’ve been a big fan. You guys have been kicking ass. I, personally, use your product a lot. [unclear 0:46] Early days. Yeah. So, it’s been great. And I think we’ve actually never spoken before. So this is kind of cool to actually hear from you for the first time.
Gabriel: 1:06 I actually get most of the time to speak to me and also Sean sometime, never really get to talk to you but I think you’ve met Jennifer in the EU?
Ben: 1:20 That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, we met in Lisbon. We spoke a bit. She’s great. So yeah, it’s been cool.
Gabriel: 1:33 I would be super happy to have her with us.
Ben: 1:38 Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, honestly, a lot of people. I feel like everyone that I’ve met in Lisbon has been great, like, just really good energy and the vibe, there has been awesome. This is a very Vibey ecosystem. So, basically, to kick things off, generally what I ask everyone, the question I ask everyone is basically, if you mind introducing yourself and sharing maybe how you got into crypto and Endor, like, got started on Samana. And then for people who don’t know about Port, maybe sharing a little bit about what Port is, for those don’t know.
Gabriel: 2:29 Yeah, so my name is Gabriel, and from the core team Port finance. And previously, I studied Computer Science at Imperial College London. Then on we get into, I met my co-founders in London, and we were working at some large tech companies. And then initially, we get into crypto just from normal trading, we buy, sell Bitcoins, and another one is, Ethereum. And we get more complicated, and then we do derivatives are mostly perpetual. And then later on, please get into the SUN ecosystem when we were dissipated in the CNIO, where we have some Ethereum and then start to learn. We bought some Ethereum with start to learn how Ethereum actually works and the blockchain that it builds on top of, then we learn how to program iron rust, and how to develop smart contracts. And then, early 2021, we realize there’s all missing pieces on the [unclear 3:35] ecosystem. So me and my two other co-founders decided to work on something. And we see that pouring lending is kind of missing. So we decided to work on pouring lending. We are starting to work on the variable pouring lending protocols. But we realized there’s actually a lot of compromise made on Ethereum. By building on a faster blockchain, we can actually do something more efficient. So we have this idea of building something fixed rate learning protocol that’s actually utilizing the [unclear 4:10] order book. That’s how the whole project came about.
Ben: 4:19 So fixed rate lending was actually something you envisioned from the start.
Gabriel: 4:26 So when we were working on our variable rate stuff, we realize for the variable rate stuff, if you’re familiar, then we determine interest rate using a curve, a curve is fixed. So it’s basically an interest rate against utilization. So when there’s more utilization, there’s higher interest rate and then it’s less efficient then we simply just let the market months to decide it. Or you can change a lot more drastically. By building on Solana, we actually leverage to CRM infrastructure, we can allow the market to decide what’s the current rate now that people are willing to offer. Take.
Ben: 5:16 Yeah, that sounds awesome. But then you launched with variable rate to begin with, though, right?
Gabriel: 5:21 Yes, that is correct. So I think, for audience who are not familiar with Port Finance, we are a lending protocol that aims to provide a full suite of interest rate products, to we not only want to provide a variable rate product, but to learn to provide fixed rate lending, and also interest rate swap. Most recently, we just launched off Tech Spray lending for USDC. And it’s the first on the entire blockchain.
Ben: 5:48 That’s awesome. By the way, I’ve been really super excited about that one. So congrats on the launch. Can I ask like, what made you decide to start with variable rate to begin with?
Gabriel: 6:04 So I think we are like if we see the development on Ethereum, we can see that the majority of DeFi users on us, still less sophisticated. We want to start with a product that has broader reach. And user can come and use our products, and also develops a sense of kind of credibility, where users knows, we are a protocol, we are a team that’s actually trustworthy. When we launched a fixed rate landing, it’s smaller market, we need to educate the users, for example of how we actually implement it behind the scene. And then also, there was a lot of trial and error on the protocol side, where if you look at Ethereum protocols, there are a number of fixed rate landing protocols, and they all uses different sort of implementations. Some notable ones, includes element, notional, etc. And all of them uses slightly different implementation. Also, we use a slightly different one than what they’ve been doing. Because we use this [unclear 7:18] book. There’s a lot of trials and errors on the fixed rate side. So even right now, we are still exploring a lot of things behind the scene.
Ben: 7:31 Can you talk about? I’m kind of curious to hear like, what do you think are the main things that sort of make fixed rate lending less accessible to sort of the broader DeFi market?
Gabriel: 7:52 Yeah, so I think there are a number of reasons, I think the first reason will be fixed rate lending has idea of terms where user need to lock up their capitals, or they need to say, borrow or lend fixed duration of time. And it’s a way the freedom of if the deposit, say, into a Port, the variable rate part or they come Aave where you can instantly withdraw a deposit. So users might prefer this freedom. And another reason will be, you’re still in a relatively early stage of DeFi, where there’s a lot of three digit APYs, or even four digits, where users don’t really care much about, say, a single digit difference in terms of interest that they’re paying. As we grow, more as more institutions join the DeFi, we’ll see more sophisticated users where they prefer this predictability. And another reason is probably related to liquidity mining, where both compound and Aave incentivize their users for depositing into the variable rate part, which grows the products even more, and then more users join, and then they all chooses a pot. So I think there are a number of reasons come into play here.
Ben: 9:27 Yeah, I think that makes sense. It’s interesting, too, because I feel like with the variable rate, the whole APY thing is sort of, I mean, we’ve certainly seen this from material is just like, people see the huge APY at the beginning, right? And they’re like, Oh, I got a bid. And I got to go in and just draws a lot of demand. But then the APY is changing as more capital is going in and people’s behavior is sort of like alright, I’m in and if they stopped looking at it. And then they might check it like, months later or something, and it’s like, drastically different. And so, it’s kind of this interesting thing like, I don’t even know if they really realize like what their actual APY that they’re getting is, and that actually fixed rate lending could give you a better return over for a longer time.
Gabriel: 10:31 Yeah, I think what you said about people don’t want to move that capital around, definitely. We also observed similar behaviors, where users probably just deposit, I just too lazy even on a chain that has such a low gas fee as Solana, they don’t want to move capital around too much.
Ben: 10:54 Yeah, yeah. It’s a thing, it’s definitely a thing. What are the kind of ideas that you’re experimenting or I guess, trial and error ring out with sort of tackling like, some of these blockers that you’ve identified for …?
Gabriel: 11:15 Okay, so I think, firstly, is on the user education side, we plan to publish, and also educate more of our users on how it works behind the scene, and then also what kind of things they can do with their fixed rate law. And also, we want to make the UI more seamless, make it easier for users, but user who even don’t understand how it works behind the scene, and still be able to use them. So we have developed a new design for existing UIs, we hope to launch in a month’s time where users to fix re-lending easier. And also, on top of that, they can use their existing crypto holdings actually borrow at a fixed rate. I think that’s pretty amazing. We have seen a lot of demands from trading firms to hold a lot of cryptos. And then they want to save borrow against their existing crypto holdings at a fixed rate for a large amount.
Ben: 12:32 Yeah, I feel like a big theme that from a number of AMAs that we’ve been doing, is protocols going after DAO treasuries, along with I mean, I guess along with institutions, which kind of makes sense, because these people are more savvy with DeFi, and they’re more easily attracted to it might be easier to attract them to some of these other kind of DeFi products is that sort of on your plan to kind of go after attract some of that investor
Gabriel: 13:18 So, I think what you mentioned about protocol Treasury or DAOs, definitely sort of most important target users. So we envision that the protocol Treasury or DAOs will be a perfect user as for fixed rate lending, or they will be able to get predictable on APYs. So once they do the lending, the rate is fixed without moving around capitals, without worry about rates changing. And then all those trading firm’s institutions be an idea we use a fixed rate borrowing, and they want to borrow large amount of stables against their existing Bitcoin or say Ethereum positions. And these are like cracking them using Port built on top of CRM which we connect these two forces and increase the efficiency.
Ben: 14:21 Cool, that’s awesome, man. But I think it’s a big, big opportunity. I love seeing more protocols. Going back to that and I feel like more protocols are also building up their treasuries now.
Gabriel: 14:38 Recent IDO is that a lot of protocols passing a ton of Treasury.
Ben: 14:44 Yeah. So I have a question like I mean, so for fixed rate lending, where does the return come from? So, we guarantee the rate.
Gabriel: 15:01 So we do fix rate lending by DeFi, we tokenize a user’s positions into two parts and there’s principal token, the others your token, so you can correspond to the interest and print the token as its principal. So we create such market. Because principal token can only be redeemed for its underlying one to one at the end of maturity. So that means there’s a market to trade it, it will be traded at a discount, because we need to wait. So the time value of money. So for users who are actually doing fixed rate lending, they’re actually buying those principal tokens. They are buying at a discount. For example, let’s say, I use 100 USDC to buy 110 principal USDC are effectively guaranteed for 10% rate over a particular period of time. That’s how we achieve fix rate.
Ben: 16:07 Okay, got it. That’s really cool. Can you talk about is this one of the ways that they…? How did you come about this mechanism versus, say, some of the other fixed rate lending?
Gabriel: 16:31 So I think they’re just different categories of how you could implement a fixed rate landing protocols. Oddly, if Ethereum let’s say, so our model is similar to zero coupon bond. And under this category, there are some other protocols including say, like yield, or notional or element, but there are some small tweaks that and then we believe that it’s quite efficient, because comparing with trading the yield Tokens, principal token markets could get larger, because like, each one will actually get to redeem one or two, the underlying, says the yield token you can only redeem for, say the interest, which is, say 10 basis point or 15 basis point.
Ben: 17:28 Got it. Okay, I’m going to switch it up a little bit, because so what we do just as a process thing, is I generally with our AMAs, we ask a trivia question from the community. So, I’m going to switch it up. I actually didn’t do a trivia in our last one. So I feel like, I owe the community a trivia question. So here we go. I think we’ll do let’s do. Let’s do a straight up one.
Gabriel: 18:13 Sure.
Ben: 18:20 By the way, actually side question on this was Solana for the first time you had, were you developing on Ethereum before or was Solana sort of the first chain that you guys started developing on?
Gabriel: 18:35 Learnt but about Ethereum before we started Solana, then actually Solana is the first blockchain that we actually deploy on chain program, you think about it kind of dangerous. But then it’s actually our first time developing a full-fledged Web3 product.
Ben: 18:58 It’s so nice.
Gabriel: 19:01 I think we start working on Solana and one of the reason is, we enjoy programming and rust, and we feel it’s some maybe we’re biased, though, it’s a much better language than solidity. And we feel our design choices makes a lot of sense.
Ben: 19:21 That’s really cool to hear, actually. Because a lot of people just talk about how hard it is.
Gabriel: 19:30 It’s kind of like a double sided sword, where it can filter the people who actually enjoys writing a rust, then they are in general, decent programmers already because of its learning curve.
Ben: 19:48 Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. Yeah, anecdotally, I feel like all the developers that we’ve met have been pretty cool. Alright, let’s get to this trivia question here. This is gonna be a simple one. We’ll start simple. It’s early for me today. Okay, trivia question number one. This is a simple one. Where did the co-founders of Port meet? Generally, I asked these questions based on what we’ve talked about just to see if people remember. Paris, interesting, interesting. By the way, the redesign looks fantastic. I’m really curious, it seems like you used the …, was it the super team DAO for to your redesign?
Gabriel: 21:18 We use the super team DAO. And it’s been amazing to work with them. They said, they’ve got 26 submissions in total, and it’s the highest they’ve ever get. And we are all amazed by its quality. And also, it’s super hard for us to actually choose the winners. And we feel like they are just so many good ones. So many talents.
Ben: 21:44 Yeah, I’ve been surprised, too. I think the design is fantastic. I’m curious, like, what made you choose to use them? And how did that go about?
Gabriel: 21:56 So, we actually, some Pirate Piper actually connect us with super team. And he personally did a product review with them. And the writing and the tutorial has been amazing. And when we were thinking about doing a redesign of the Port about we think of them again. And then yes, they’ve managed to collect so many amazing designers and its proposals. It’s just fantastic.
Ben: 22:36 Yeah, that’s really cool. I kind of wondering about using them because I was talking to chase actually a while ago, and he’s been using them for other things. And I’ve been thinking about, what ways we could leverage them just because, I mean, I’ve never used a DAO before for a project like that. And I think it’s pretty cool to try out new working processes.
Gabriel: 23:04 I think community we want to tap more into the community side. We want to actually make the protocol community and then also, we launched the governance modules where we want to come forward, amortization is done by the DAO instead of ourselves.
Ben: 23:24 Yeah. So congrats to earn them for winning trivia number one. The correct answer was London. And most of you were following along so awesome. I feel like some people were randomly throwing out cities but cool to see anyway. Let me ask one more trivia question. And then actually I really want to get to, I think this is what you brought up was a good segue for talking about the Port DAO but let me let me let me throw out one more so. Alright, so trivia question number two. What are some of the reasons that make fixed rate lending not as accessible to broader crypto users? Usually, we do wrong answer versions. I just don’t like kind of … I think they’re pretty fun. But today I feel in the mood of asking informative questions… of cryptocurrencies. Okay, awesome. I’m enjoying the answers anyway.
Gabriel: 25:43 Hey, Elon Musk’s tweets?
Ben: 25:46 Yeah, that’s pretty funny. You guys are funny. Well, maybe this one being a tough one. I think be we’re going for the most wrong answer version anyway. That’s hilarious. Interesting! The next one’s probably gonna be I give up. Wow, all right. This is good user research on fixed rate lending. Maybe, we should ask, is anyone doing any fixed rate lending today? And how do you feel about it? Not everyone is a Degen. I actually would think that fixed rate lending is not for Degen.
Gabriel: 27:22 It’s not, I don’t think it’s for Degen.
Ben: 27:28 But maybe that’s the thing to solve? Is it to make fixed rate lending more Degen.
Gabriel: 27:37 Especially, we should put more incentive [unclear 27:41] to lend at a fixed rate. Maybe our transportation.
Ben: 27:47 Maybe, what you do is like you take the Yield token, and you put like a dog, like a dog meat or like a main dog, as the name of the Yield token. There you go. Done.
Gabriel: 28:05 Yeah, it’s actually quite funny. We also have a Yield token market. And for some reason, we’ve seen a continuous buying of Yield tokens, and we suspect is because people don’t understand what they represent. And they just keep buying, keep buying where it’s traded. And even 20x of what it should be.
Ben: 28:32 Wait, you said, 20x of what it should be? Wow!
Gabriel: 28:35 That’s a lot of opportunities. Like two weeks ago. Yeah.
Ben: 28:43 That’s crazy.
Gabriel: 28:44 People might think it’s a new tokens, so they just keep buying. Yeah, it’s cheap.
Ben: 28:52 That’s really interesting. Actually, earlier on when we launched Jupiter, I mean, this is more anecdotal, sort of data or evidence, or like when we launched Jupiter, one of the things that I talked about early on was how there was a lot of… I noticed sort of the long tail of Dex is or markets, where there’s typically low liquidity but actually, I would say like, a lot of price inefficiencies, and because of that, they ended up being really good token markets to route to, to discover best price routes for your trades. And I sort of noticed this because it Aldrin launched and they started popping up in a lot of, we drove a lot of volume to them and they start popping up in the best price routes. And the nice thing is since we swapped through in one transaction, even if they’re low liquidity, it’ll either work or it won’t work. And there were a lot of like these, these a lot of great trades. I think a lot of people got some good rates because of this. But then I think as time and as our volumes have grown, like, a lot of those price inefficiencies get corrected. So I see more often, like, deeper liquidity pools just having better rates than a lot of the smaller markets. But when they do come online, either if the volatility goes, or the market is really active, or new ones come online, they’re usually the first, they’ll usually be at the top of facilitating our trades. That’s kind of interesting.
Gabriel: 30:54 We observe similar situation with small exchanges that has Sencha. There’s some of the coins for larger liquidity pools.
Ben: 31:07 Yeah. It sounds like you’ve seen some interesting things too, launching your product. Are there other observations you’ve had in terms of like, oh, wow, this is surprising? This should have not happened. Why is this happening?
Gabriel: 31:21 Yeah, I think for the pricing of the principal tokens, there’s actually so if you think about it, for the token allow you to redeem one to want to underline assets. So that means if we have principal USDC to USDC markets should never be traded at more than one USDC. Because at maturity can only redeem you one. We have seen how book just keeps buying and push the price above one, where you basically you get free arbitrage opportunities by just minting and then suddenly, immediately for profit.
Ben: 32:01 Wow, that’s pretty interesting. Do you know why is it again, this education thing? Or what do you think is driving?
Gabriel: 32:11 The two reasons. One is that maybe some people also think that as a new token that just launched, and if they look at the circulating supply is not too many, they might think, given that they calculate FDVs and think, okay, that’s like, I think less than a million or [unclear 32:31], maybe, it’ll go up. So let me just buy some, that could be one reason, the other reason is we incentivize the principal, [unclear 32:42] and USDC pool. So, maybe people don’t know how to mint for USDC. And instead of just buy on the market, then deposited in the Atrix farm to farm some core tokens.
Ben: 32:58 That’s interesting. That’s really interesting. Yeah, that can make that can make a lot of sense. Actually. I could see that, me like maybe they’re not following you. They’re just looking at the token markets and seeing what’s trending or what’s new and, and literally just doing the easiest thing to get in. That’s quite interesting. Okay, I’m going to give an answer to the … I think I’m going to give the winner for the second trivia to Humphrey. I think you did a good, I think that was the closest thing. So congrats, Humphrey. That’s … or trivia, number two. Thanks for sharing that, by the way. So, everyone listening in, Gabriel just shared some alpha there. There’s out opportunities right now, on Port.
Gabriel: 34:27 So you were saying.
Ben: 34:30 No, no, no. So I wanted to ask about the Port DAO. Since we were talking about DAO actually. So you just recently launched the Port DAO. And you’re using actually Tribeca DAO right to power the Port DAO.
Gabriel: 34:46 We actually use Tribeca DAO and Tribeca DAO is done by many leading projects in salon space, include including Saber, auto a tricks, Friktion, and then sunny, query etc. and provide a common governance module, infrastructure where any projects can plug in, and then use the DAO infrastructure for voting decide on important matters. So now we are in the process of transitioning, in addition more decisions that can be done by the core teams to the DAO, where user can decide on many important issues. So, for example, how liquidity mining rewards should be distributed among different assets? And then also, if we should, for example, incentivize the locking of Port tokens in the return of the Port. And also if, what kind of new assets we should support, etc. So, I think it’s really important for us to go forward on the route of decentralization, where all the token holders can participate in the DAO decide on the future, the Port’s future.
Ben: 36:12 Yeah, I think those are great things, to also for the doubt vote and, I mean, this is something that we’re thinking about too, in terms of like, how do we move towards a DAO? And what are the things that we let the DAO decide on? Were there any particular considerations for choosing those specific things to get started with, or …?
Gabriel: 36:40 On the Port DAO, anyone can create proposal. So this can be voted on. And then as long as proposal gets activated, it will be opened up for voting over the voting duration. Then, like the example that I mentioned, some obvious things, and I think users cares about but then there’s also some other stuff. As long as you create a proposal, then it’s activated, it can be voted. So basically anything and we hope could actually leave more powers to the token holders. And then we also the Tribeca DAO incentivize longer term voting. So longer term thinking where the user who locks up their tokens for longer times gains more voting powers. So we can filter out those short term holders. And those longer term holders.
Ben: 37:43 Yeah, I love that mechanic by the way, I really love that mechanic. Just because I feel like it’s one of the few things, the few mechanisms or levers to help align people towards long term thinking versus like short term, I feel like there’s a lot of short term thinking in terms of just even having to do with like people wanting to just looking at token price. Yeah, that’s really cool. And have you done a proposal yet? On there, or you’re still migrating over?
Gabriel: 38:24 So right now, I think there’s two proposals that got created, none of them has been activated yet. And we are still in process of transitioning more powers into the DAO. So for example, we will be transitioning our program upgrade authority to the DAO. For each program update that need to go through a formal voting procedures. And also we are in the process of transferring more treasury tokens into the DAO where the DAO can decide how they want to spend all these tokens, be it use it as liquid incentive, or say for in partnership with other projects, etc. And then recently, we launched a bug bounty was 500k, bug bounty was in [unclear 39:12] as to prepare gradual open sourcing our code.
Ben: 39:22 Wow, that’s fantastic, man. That’s really amazing. Actually, I think that really gives a lot of meat to the DAO, like doing those two things. And it’s great to hear that you’re open sourcing. So I’m curious, like, how are you envisioning that process? You’re saying, it’s gradual? Like, what are you waiting? I mean, you’ve already been audited is there like what other things like what are the steps in terms of getting to towards open source for you?
Gabriel: 39:56 So we take a graduate approach. So we actually opened, open source our staking program already, which is the code that we use for liquid mining rewards. Then right now we are in the process of clean up our code a bit, probably is private. But then there’s some information though, we want to make sure we clean up the code, etc. Then before we open source it. Also, our new fix relearning program, sundial, we are in the process of adding more features. Once the code base stabilizes, we will open source it as well.
Ben: 40:37 That’s fantastic. That’s amazing. I’m just gonna ask because I feel like this is a good, important topic around open source. But do you have any concern? I mean, it sounds like, do you have any worries about competition? Looking at your source code? And what made you like, what factors or what considerations? Were there? Like where you were like, Okay, it’s not a big deal, like open source is more important?
Gabriel: 41:06 I think there is, I think in general, Solana ecosystem has been more closed source. And then compared to Ethereum, many of the major projects are on say, closed source or partially closed source. But then we believe that earth … I think, the whole idea of DeFi. That is the protocol itself is governed by token holders. If we don’t do the open sourcing, then how can a problem put [unclear 41:41] don’t know, what’s in the protocols? How can they govern the protocol? And then on top of that, I think insourcing enables the composability of protocols. I think this is the core value proposition of DeFi, why do I prefer it users prefer DeFi because they can build on top of it, can extend it, can build a custom interface, and fetch the data on the blockchain for other protocols. So I think principals have advantages, which we believe over way any say this advantages on the plagiarism, or just some of my [unclear 42:23] your projects etc. I think it has more advantages than disadvantages, then. So we believe that continue innovation, then keep delivering new products, actually lies on the team versus the code.
Ben: 42:46 I think those are fantastic reasons, by the way, and I think, requires sort of a shift to thinking because it seems, you’re shifting from the advantage, I would say, I guess, for a project being their code base to being more around their community or their token holders. And as you say, like, the development capabilities of the team are the contributors. I think that’s, we’ve been thinking a lot along the same lines, and I think that, but I also feel like it means changing up how you operate, and I think certain team, and also, the things that I think about is like, how do you move from a more centralized way of, and this is why I was asking you about the DAO, but more centralized way of operating, right, where you can generally move quicker and do things to much more decentralized, much more DAO involved, where now, like, a lot of your community has a say, and people may have different opinions in different directions. So, it’s kind of I’m always wondering like, well, what’s the best way to balance these two things?
Gabriel: 44:25 So I think that there’s always be like different opinions build an organization, large or small, and even among the same team, sometimes don’t agree on interactions. It’s important to have a place where people can discuss and then decide collectively what’s best for the protocols. I think they actually chose more ideas. So it’s more intelligence from the larger community and those communities actually, holds your tokens need to lock up your tokens, and then slot in a line, it doesn’t make sense for them to actually decide on something that’s not good for the protocols. So I think it’s a net win for the protocols to distribute powers into token holders, or dispositions that’s done previously by just a small group of people. Okay, done more transparently. Does it in an open manner?
Ben: 45:35 Yeah, I agree. And actually to, I’m going to echo something that a point that you’ve made, that actually someone in our community also making Humphrey, you know that open sourcing is great for overall growth of the ecosystem. And I think your point on that open sourcing code makes composability and interoperability so much easier, I think is right on point. And it’s something that I’ve mentioned in the past, where, like, our experiences, integrating with other protocols, it’s still very much a …, you have to talk to them. Like, because things are closed source, and there’s very little documentation, and things are changing as well, too. So if you want to integrate with anyone, it’s actually necessary to be able to talk to them. And that makes it harder to scale. So we’re talking to a lot of people, but I mean, as the ecosystem grows, this just becomes harder. And so I think opens, the more people who open source, the better the ecosystem can interoperate and grow. So, I think it’s right on right on, and a good mindset for like, okay, how can we grow this thing? So, yeah, love it. Cool. So I think we’re wrapping up soon. Usually, the question I ask is, is there anything on your roadmap that you’re particularly excited about or want to share? That’s coming up with everyone?
Gabriel: 47:24 So I think on the major product offerings, we have two super exciting stuff coming up. And so the first one will be to allow users to do fixed rate borrowing, where they borrow against existing crypto holdings, so they borrow against their Bitcoins, or borrowed against their Solana etc. And another thing would be, we hope to launch a product that allow users to trade derivatives using leverage. They can long or short, the current interest rate. And Apple opens up a lot of new possibility for more sophisticated users.
Ben: 48:07 Wow, that sounds amazing, actually. What is the timeframe for each of these things?
Gabriel: 48:15 So I think for the fixed rate borrowing, we are looking at end of January and early February, and then four interest rate swap derivatives, it will be around May times that needs some more planning.
Ben: 48:29 Yeah. That’s a great timeline. I’m super excited. I’m pumped. I can’t wait for you to launch. Exactly! That sounds amazing. Cool. Well, thank you for coming on to the AMA. I mean, you shared some amazing stuff. You’ve shared some alpha. I think it’s been great having you on. Thank you, everyone for listening in. It’s been really cool.
Gabriel: 49:00 Thank you, Ben for hosting me.
Ben: 49:04 Yeah, thank you, Gabriel. All right. You guys all have a good one. And we’ll see you at the next AMA.
Gabriel: 49:10 Thank you! See you guys.
Ben: 49:15 Cheers.