Jupiter x Socean AMA

Jupiter: the key liquidity aggregator and swap infrastructure for Solana

Jupiter AMA with FP & Sloaf from Socean(2/3/22)
Socean is building decentralized, positive-sum financial products.

AMA Transcript

Ben: 0:00 So, thanks everyone for joining the latest AMA with Socean! We have FP and Sloaf from Socean. So, why don’t we get started? Basically, the first question I always ask everyone is, do you mind sharing a little bit about your backgrounds and maybe how you got started in crypto and the origin of Socean?
FP: 0:27 Yeah! So, I guess, we all have different backgrounds. So, I have a background in economics and Sloaf has a background in finance. Some of us have studied Computer Science and Mathematics. But I think afterwards, we all started working either as data scientists or software engineers. And we in that space, I think we heard about crypto pretty early. But we didn’t get really hot onto Solana until last year, in February when we thought, Hey! One of my co-founders said, Hey! I read the codebase. I’m really bullish about Solana. I really liked the fact that it’s written in rust. So, for us, we then started off exploring Solana a little bit more. And I think, how Socean started was that we actually saw a particular grant proposal from Solana on their website. And they were basically offering people money to build out a stake pool dashboard. And we took up the grant, we got a proposal accepted, then we realized that it’s no point building a dashboard if there are no staples. And so we pivoted to building a state pool instead. Yeah! So, mean, then we started contributing to the Solana upstream, stake pool implementation, and we identified some exploits. Yeah! I mean, we eventually deployed it on Test Net and on Main net. And then, I guess, the rest is history!
Ben: 2:04 Wow! You actually identified some exploits. Do you recall which ones that were? That’s pretty cool.
FP: 2:11 Yeah. So, I think one of the issues was that there was this ability for… Sorry, one sec. So, one of the ways in which you can exploit a stake pool… I mean, it’s been fixed now, is that you can do what is called “Validated Arbitrage.” So, for example, imagine if you have a validator that’s doing very poorly, or even slashing the future, and that it’s going to happen at the end of the epoch but what you can do is that, once you know this, then you immediately deposit this stake sol with the state pool. And what you’re doing is you’re basically washing your dirty sol that’s going to get slashed into the staple. And, basically, the stake pool takes your entire losses. And because what happens is, then you can pick out. Once you deposit it, you get the essence or the liquid stake sol. All right. And basically you’re forcing the stake pool to take your losses. So, this is one of the exploits that was identified.
Ben: 3:13 Yeah. Well, it’s super cool, man. And how did you guy all meet up?
FP: 3:22 We used to all be… It’s a good question. So, we used to all be high school classmates a long time ago. And, obviously, after high school, we went our separate ways. But, somehow, after we started the grant, we met up again. And we thought let’s all quit our jobs and work on this.
Ben: 3:45 Wow! Wait! So, you guys got to grant from Solana, and then decided to quit your job? That’s how it worked?
FP: 3:48 No! So, we got the grand from Solana. We worked on it as a side project. One thing led to another. We got more and more attraction. We got active users. And Hey, this stuff is serious. And then, we started to response. And after we raise funds, we realized, Okay! We’ve taken people’s money. And now, we have this responsibility to keep building and we shouldn’t be working on this part time anymore. We all quit our jobs.
Ox_Sloaf: 4:20 Yeah. And I think it definitely helped that… I mean, it felt like, we were at the right place, at the right time, with a staple on Solana. But obviously, at that point of time, we launched. We had to have a working product, which was all state pool. But it definitely felt that we were at the right place, at the right time, for sure.
Ben: 4:42 Yeah, I would agree! And I mean, I still think the amazing part to me about Solana is, “The momentum keeps growing!” There’s like, new folks coming in. New people building… And I feel like, it’s still a great time. It just continues to become better and better. So I think, it’s great to see people, come in. And I’m actually always… I’m continually impressed how the Solana graduates have kick started so many good projects, like yours, and brought together good teams. So, super cool to see!
FP: 5:33 I think Solana has done a really great job. I mean, you’ve been in space for longer than we have, of course. But if you just look at the ecosystem, just a year ago, and the ecosystem now, it’s crazy. There are so many hundreds of new projects, and a lot of them are really good, like the quality of projects, the quality of the people has just gone up. Yeah, it’s really impressive to see.
Ben: 5:56 Yeah, this is this is definitely one reason why, even in this bear market, I think, I’m very bullish on Solana. And I think the groundwork is being laid, even given a number of the growing pains we’ve had to go through as well. I think, a lot of groundwork has been laid for to grow into its next phase. So, that’s really cool. So, maybe what we should do for those who… I mean, I’m sure everyone here knows Socean, but maybe for those who don’t know, do you mind giving the high level TLDR or how you see yourselves?
FP: 6:46 Yeah! That’s a great question. And to be honest, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. So, Socean used to be a staple. And our goal is to be like the best staple on Solana offering the highest yields. But right now, we really are a Suite of Positive Sum of different products. And obviously… So, I want to explain that positive sum thing a little bit. So positives… I mean, there are tons of different products that one can consider be build. But I think Positive Sum means something special to us. And it means that everybody wins, So, for example, maybe, let’s say an options, nothing against options, but when you buy an option to resell option, like somebody wins and somebody loses. But a stake pool, for example when you stake sol, everybody wins. There’s nobody who has to take the other side. When you stake Sol, you gain APY. And that’s a win for you. But Solana blockchain, and everyone else wants you to stake. Because in staking, you’d help to secure the network and make it more decentralized. So that’s an example of Positive Sum DeFi product. The second product that we are about to launch is “Socean Streams.” And that, basically is like a marketplace for streams of tokens. So for example, if a project has a token, and he wants to give it out, but it doesn’t want to give it out right away, then what it can do he can keep it out as a stream over a year, or a month or something. And why is this a win-win? Because obviously, for the protocol, it gives them a way to control their token supply. But also for the person who is buying, it’s basically a way for you to make basically some long-term bet, like a value bet on the protocol. If you believe that price of token is trading now and this protocol is super undervalue. And I think, it’s going to go up in a year’s time, then what you can do is basically make a bet and get a discount in order to do so. So, you get more value out of it. So that’s what we mean by win-win products.
Ben: 8:56 I mean; I love that philosophy. I think, I mean, I shared this in a lot of AMAs. But I feel we’re all early and we should grow the pie. And I feel like that thinking is in line with that. So, how can we all win? What are kinds of things we’re all winning, and we’re all growing? Very cool! How do you how do you tie it all together, though? I mean, I guess you can say, it sounds like, that’s the general philosophy for this week. But when you communicate that to new users or people who are interested in what you guys are doing… I mean, do you just imagine your suite of products growing out organically in that way? Or do you have another way to… I mean, I guess, how do you imagine people using it? Are you building out the suite of products as verticals, where people are interested in one side or another, they can go there? Or will you integrate a little bit horizontally where people use a range of them?
FP: 10:21 So, I mean, that’s a super good question. And I think, you really struck right at the heart of it. And I think this is a big question that faces us. So, what’s the vision here? Because, even so Positive Sum DeFi Product doesn’t quite narrow down. And I think that what we really want to be is we want to be the place whereby someone with a particular risk, set of preferences, risk preferences, and return preferences. And, things like that. They’ll find a strategy. They’ll find a product for them. But how… You’re absolutely right, which is that how do you tie it all together? Because we don’t want to have 20 different products. And people just get hopelessly confused about what Socean is. And this is a big issue. So, I think what we’re going to do is we’re going to make sure that all of the products that are built, all pump into our flagship product, which is the sequel. So, the reason we built Socean streams… It wasn’t really to have a fly-view with the staple, it was just because it doesn’t exist. It didn’t exist in Solana when we built it. And we needed it for our own economics. But in the future, I think what we’re going to do is we’re going to bring all of these other strategies, and we’re going to look at our flagship product. And we’re going to see how do these products help to… How to grow our flagship product? So, one of the things we’re thinking about, for example, is leveraged staking. And I’ve explained this in our collaboration with Solend. But the idea is that you can put Stake Sol into Solend. You can use it to borrow Sol. You put it right into Socean. And you repeat this process, therefore maximizing staking yields. And this is like a positive fly-view, driving volume to our core flagship product. And I think, that’s the way in which we’re going to go about it.
Ben: 12:11 Oh that’s interesting. Yeah, I can see that. So, we had something similar in our material. And this is something, we had some users. But I forgot what they called it. They called it loops or something. Like, they wrote up articles on, how you can loop to in this case? It was Michael and Parrot. How you can loop through and get leverage. And so, I think that’s pretty cool. I mean, I feel like, there’s some synergy in doing that. It’s interesting! Yeah. Cool. But let me ask you though, do you feel like with streams, you’re competing with Invictus Flair or are there are differences?
FP: 13:05 Yeah! So, I guess, we were taking a little bit by surprise. Because as I said, I think, when we started wanting to build this, like Invictus Flair, it wasn’t a thing. Invictus wasn’t a thing. So, it is true that Invictus flair is a very similar product. But I think that fundamentally there are philosophical differences. So, what I mean by that is Ohm forks as well as Invictus, which is an Ohm forks. They all start from that core or decentralized reserve currency. And I hope, I don’t offend too many people here, but I think it’s becoming clearer and clearer that the whole mechanism is a Ponzi. It really… I mean, no amount of obfuscation and (3,3) whatever is actually going to hide that fact. And so philosophically, the bonds are really there to prop-up that Ponzi. And whereas for Socean, we came at it from a completely different perspective. We looked at this need right in the market. And we know like, Okay! A lot of protocols want to do Agile. A lot of protocols want to give out their tokens. There are a lot of reasons why you would want to give up your tokens, but just not right away. And, you don’t… It’s not for propping up the Ponzi. So, I guess, that really I would put the question to a lot of these protocols and be like, do you really want to associate yourself with protocols like Olympus or Invictus? When the cuts come to tumbling down, especially if you have a long term project that is here, not known as a Ponzi, but by building a real product that actually has had value. So, I think, Socean is a very long-term oriented project with a real product. And would you rather align with us? Or would you rather align with something that is…? Yeah.
Ben: 15:14 That’s really interesting. I mean, kudos to you for throwing down the gauntlet, man. You are really challenging people. I think, it’s interesting that you talk about the… It feels like the underlying motivation versus… I guess, I would say, the mechanics of how things are. And there can be maybe a big difference. Because, I mean, it seems like… Maybe I’m reinterpreting what you’re saying. But it seems like, you are saying, while you have the same mechanics as Invictus flair, you’re using it in order to identify the loyal people or people who are long term holders or believers in the protocol? Is that underlying intent around Socean Streams or helping a protocol figure out…?
FP: 16:18 Exactly, to filter out these short term flippers as well as controlling token supply inflation. Yeah, I think, fundamental… I mean, I don’t want to bang on about the philosophical thing too much. So, I think, even if that philosophical thing doesn’t convince you. You can take a look at the Invictus UI. And you can have a look at our UI when it comes out. And you can decide which one you like better. And I think, even apart from these philosophical implications, I’m confident that we will execute the best looking and best performing product in the market.
Ox_Sloaf: 17:05 Yeah! I want to say that I think it’s also worth putting it out there. Our idea for streams really came from first principle thinking. When we were thinking about launching our own governance token and also like dealing with our own Tokenomics, then we faced the problem of, how do prevent what has happened to most protocols, which is almost like a pump and dump scenario. And iterating through that problem and thinking of a solution that’s how we arrived at Socean streams. And so, like that… I mean, tying in together with FP’s philosophic slant. It really is… This product stems from first principles. And as a protocol sells, we would totally use our product. We are very confident that whatever we have come up with, and whatever we have built, actually brings positive sum to both investors and protocols as well. And I guess, from that sense, our reasoning of bringing this product to the market was that there’s a real need for this. And it’s definitely not sound like a Ponzi, or we are just here for the short-term, that kind of thing.
Ben: 18:23 I mean, I feel, it also sounds like you’re trying to solve your own problems.
Ox_Sloaf: 18:29 Oh yeah! For sure.
FP: 18:31 Yeah, we were very much scafolding. Yeah.
Ben: 18:35 Yeah! Let me let me switch a little bit back, because maybe this is related. But there are couple questions from the community. One is from… I’m going to brutalise the handle, but evouhamsamuel. Yeah. But he was just reading one of your articles. And you mentioned something about rising tide mechanism. And he was just curious about what does that mean, and whether or not that’s related to what you’re talking about?
FP: 19:07 Yeah, sure. So the rising tide mechanism is actually referring to our tokenomics mechanism. And it’s a way in which we ensure the price appreciation of our governance token. So, I think, one problem that we’ve noticed a lot of protocols have is that they launched their token and they won’t tell you what it’s for. They’ll make some very nebulous promises about governance, about the fees, and then will eventually go to token holders. But it’s really not clear that how these fees are eventually going to accrue to token holders. And we really wanted to avoid that. We want to make sure that when you buy a token, you should exactly know, how am I getting the revenues? And what can I do with that token? So apart from governance, we have also capital appreciation. For the rising tide mechanism, the way it works is basically, we commit to putting our future revenues right into a private liquidity pool owned by either… And so I’ll give an example. So, for example, imagine in the liquidity pool, you have 100,000 USDC and 100,000 Socean tokens. So that means that the price of 1 Socean token is 1 USDC. Now, for example, now, the rising tide mechanism basically says, when the protocol periodically put in, let’s say, like 100,000 USDC from its revenues… So, now in the LP, there’s going to be 100,000 Socean and 200,000 USDC. And, basically, this causes the spot price of the token to go up. Now, essentially, the protocol Socean is saying that, I will buy your token, if you want to sell it back to us. I’ll buy a token for $2. So, that is basically a guarantee to buy at that spot price for until the liquidity holds. So, as the protocol continues to earn revenues, we will keep pumping these revenues into the private liquidity pool, and to make sure that the price of the token just continues to go up.
Ben: 19:16 That’s very cool.
FP: 20:17 I hope that I answer the question!
Ben: 21:28 Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I actually read a little bit about your thoughts on the Tokenomics. I thought you had a really good way of describing the problems that you see, and what you’re trying to tackle. Do you want to go into some of those things, what you’ve seen with other tokens?
FP: 21:56 Yeah. So I think, the reason why, we actually, as a product we launched quite early. But, we launch our token very late. And I think the reason is, because we are not in any rush to launch a token. I think, a lot of people during the pool market, they were just trying to grab cash. They just wanted to strike while the iron is hot. And for us, we observed a lot of projects, making the same mistakes again, and again. So, I would say one big problem that a lot of projects have is that they launch with a very low initial token supply. And what that means is that there’s 100% of tokens. And let’s say, 60% is reserved for community. 40% is reserved for the Dow. And they’ll sell right in the IDO for like 0.3%, 2.5%, or 1% maximum off their token. And they work with exchanges to do it usually, or launch pads and stuff. And so what is the problem with this? I think, the problem is that when you artificially restrict the supply in this way, what’s going to happen is that, there’s a lot of demand and interest in buying a token. And what that means is that artificially pushes the price up of the token, like crazy. And this is where you get these insane, billion dollar valuations, things like that happen. But in reality, that is not the actual market price of the protocol. And I think what makes the problem worse is that these protocols in an effort to grow aggressively, they usually give lots of liquidity mining rewards. So, they’ll incentivize this LP and that LP. They’ll give out airdrops and stuff. But the problem is that when you only have like a 1% float supply as 14 initial supply, whatever the address that you’re giving, is going to cause massive inflation of your token. And so what happens is that the price of the token just keeps going down. Because, you’re basically giving out so much of these tokens, like crazy. And so this is really not good for like anybody. It’s not good for the protocol, obviously. Because the pricing. But it is really not good for your core believers. The people who believe in your token and bought in at such a high price. And now they have to see 90% losses. That’s not really like a good look. I have some other points. But I’ll let Ben jump in for a minute.
Ben: 24:23 Are you talking about me?
FP: 24:25 Yeah, I mean, should I go on?
Ben: 24:28 No! I mean, actually, I think, you’re doing great. I mean, I’ll just chime in a little bit to say that, like, I think this is really fresh thinking. And I think, actually, even some comments from the community like… I feel like, the community, people in general and the ecosystem have become more aware of this. But, I think, in some ways, it’s very true. When you see protocols rushing their token to catch market timing or… It’s clear that they’re trying to maximize short term gains for themselves. And also your point on lack of utility… It also just means that, look, people are rushing. They haven’t actually figured out the utility. Maybe, it’s not even done. So, I mean, to be honest, I think, this is one reasons why a lot of people ask Jupiter about our token. And one reason why we’re not rushing to do an IDO or token, because we want to figure these things out. And we want to… We’re thinking about the long term. And we want to make sure everything is… We’re gonna reward our… The incentives are aligned, that our community, our users who’ve been with us are going to… We’re all going to benefit. And it’s not short term or cash grab.
FP: 26:05 Yeah, exactly. And I really don’t like these projects that just try and launch a token to get it out of the gate and sometimes even before they have mainnet launch, I think. Yeah, I mean, I think at this point, I feel confident in launching our token because we have 10,000 users. We have people… been staking a long time organically. So, I’m happy. One more thing that I will say, a big no no that’s something really rub me the wrong way, is that when they sell projects to VCs, or private investors at a very low price. And then, in the IDO, they do some uncapped auction or they sell it at a much higher much price, than whatever they sold through the private sale. I don’t want to say names here, but there is one protocol that sold on a very low price to investors. And then, they had sort of like Mango Style, uncapped auction, where they auction off tiny amounts of the supply in crazy high price. Predictably, what then happened was that the price was super high, and then the investors just dumped on them. And I think, this is really, really unethical. And I really believe in giving the early users and supporters the retail price or same price or a better terms than our private investors. Because these guys are the ones who believed in us from the start. These people contributing to the protocol. So, I really don’t like thing that projects do. And in our IDO we want to showed the gift, our supporters, the same price and better terms than what our private investors got.
Ben: 27:51 I can’t agree more. But let me take… I personally can’t agree more. But I’m going to take it to a little bit the other side, just to like it… I want ask… For the project you are thinking about, wouldn’t there be a lockup with the private investors on the IDO? And that should protect some of that dumping or was there none of that? Because there is.
FP: 28:24 Not too specific, but I think, the vesting terms are changed a little bit very soon. Before the IDO… They quietly changed their terms before the announcement. So yeah, I don’t want to…
Ben: 28:42 Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So that’s interesting to me, Because in some ways… I mean, just to balance it out and be fair because there are good investors out there. I mean, look! Definitely, a lot of what you say happens! And I totally agree. I mean, I think the community and our users are the most important people. But just to play the other side of it, I do know that there are really good and long-term ticking investors. And usually there are locking investing periods that make sense to a lot of people.
FP: 29:23 Yeah. Absolutely! I mean, for us, personally, we took investment. We took VC money. And we’re happy to do it. But the VCs have been locked for 3 years. I mean, they are good VCs. I believe we took good VCs. And not all VCs are bad. But I think, some projects or some VCs, they might not be so scrupulous. Yeah.
Ben: 29:49 Yeah! I agree. I mean… And honestly, it’s good to hear what you’re doing and also be more transparent about this stuff because I feel like one of the problems is that like people outside the teams, can’t really tell. I mean, this is true in a lot of industries, by the way. It is just normal. Either retail investors or users have a hard time seeing into this stuff. How do you know one project from another, one investor from another, and what their terms are? And, so I think, it’s on us, I feel like to be more transparent, to build in mechanisms to make it fair and equitable for our communities. So, I’m totally don’t… Because of…
FP: 30:48 Oh sorry! No. I just wanted to say, I agree with you 100%. I think, often product protocols don’t really disclose how much they raise for. What they sold their tokens to private investors for? For me, I want to be absolutely transparent. I tell everybody, we raised at 6 cents. And that’s going to be the price that everybody’s going to get.
Ben: 31:14 That’s amazing, man. Dude, great. I mean, I really applaud you for being transparent about that and building more of this…What are you calling this? A fair launch. How are you describing it?
FP: 31:32 Honestly, I have no idea at this point, the term fair launch has been thrown around so much. It doesn’t mean anything anymore. Everybody calls their launch… Who’s going to call their launch an unfair launch? This is unfair launch; we’re going to rip you off. I love to say that. Yeah! I mean, honestly, it doesn’t matter what we call it. I think, it’s more than fair in the sense that we are literally giving out to people with better terms than our private investors. And I don’t see, how it could be fairer than that?
Ben: 32:02 I think you should call it, “More Than Fair Launch.”
FP: 32:05 Exactly! Yeah.
Ben: 32:11 It seems like Kanda here is for the unfair launch.
FP: 32:15 If you want to buy the token at $2. I’ll write this off to you.
Ben: 32:22 Our fair 2.0! That’s cool. Are there any other things you want to share about how that will work?
FP: 32:34 Yeah! I think, this is like a smaller mistake. But it’s still a mistake nonetheless, I think, a lot of protocols have run uncapped auction. Right. And so, Mango was the first one who did it. And they did an uncapped auction, and a lot of protocols follow as well. I think, the idea like this… I think this is not as big a mistake, but I think it is still a mistake because of uncapped options. In uncapped auctions, the price tends to go really high. Just because like emotions tend to run wild and people just have FOMO and stuff. It also allows lots of mind games that people are taking in, and putting it out at the last moments. So, it’s not super great. I think, it appeals to the economist because it’s like, you’re paying the market price. We see that panel not so well. And the price starts high, and then it goes down low after the end of the auction. So that’s an uncapped auction. And so what we’ve done is that we’ve actually put a cap on our auction. So, what I mean, is that, it still an auction but the price of the token is capped at 30 cents. So, after 30 cents, after the price restrictions, the auction will close. And basically, we’re committing to sell all the tokens at 30 cents maximum. And I think, the reason is just because we don’t want people to be stressed out in the emotion of the IDO, and pay a price that… To be honest, if you ask me, its Socean a billion dollar protocol? I’m saying no, not right now. So, I want people to pay a fair reasonable price, and then watch the price go up, rather than trying to optimize for squeezing every drop of money from the retails at the IDO and just bleeding up the token price in the long term. So, I think that’s another mistake that people make. We’ve avoided that with a capped option.
Ben: 34:30 That’s great. And honestly, I really like this thinking because I don’t think enough protocols that they passed the IDO. What happens? And I mean, to your point, a lot of people… The price pumps, and then it just dramatically drops for all the reasons that you described. I mean, your investors are hurt. And it’s hard to recover from… I mean, it’s just a bad time to deal with them. They are hard to recover, I think. Cool. So, what I’m going to do is, I’m going to switch over and do a trivia. We’re at the halfway mark. Trivia number 1. All right, here we go. This one’s a simple one! Trivia question number one, what does Positive Sum DeFi products mean?
FP: 34:54 It’s a great question.
Ben: 35:21 Yeah. Butterball, that’s a really easy answer. But Correct! Oh by the way, while people answering… I’m just curious. How did you guys come up with the name Socean?
FP: 35:36 That’s a good question. To be honest, I think the name is not great because every time you type in Socean finance, Google tells you, did you meet ocean finance? I find it super annoying. So, we thought about it a little bit more closely. Yeah! But to answer the question, we were thinking a lot about stake pools. So pools are like bodies of water. And we thought, what’s the biggest body of water? It is an ocean. And then, Solana! We just put “S” on top of it. So, Socean Finance… I think, the initial idea was to have different stake pools, like Atlantic pool, Pacific pool, and that sort of stuff. But eventually, we realized that there wasn’t much differentiation between the different stake pools. So, Yeah. But that’s where the name came from. Basically, it was the ocean because it was the largest body of water, bigger than a pool. And then like the “S” infront.
Ben: 36:32 Like Solana or something?
FP: 36:34 Yeah, exactly,
FP: 36:35 Yeah, Sol and Solana. That’s…
Ben: 36:39 Interesting. Maybe, you should go through rebranding. If you’re doing this Positive Sum or this rising tide thing. I don’t know, if there’s something…
FP: 36:51 You could be right. I just wonder, is it too late? You think so. Yeah. I mean…
Ben: 36:59 It’s never too late. You should totally… I mean, I remember when…
FP: 37:03 Facebook can do it.
Ben: 37:05 Yeah, Google. Meta. Yeah. Like, I mean, Meta, Facebook. I mean, who knows? Hey, what is this?
FP: 37:15 Oh it was before, do you remember that? What was Drift call before?
Ben: 37:21 Oh they were Moet Finance. The champagne thing. I’m so glad that they…, Actually, it’s funny. I think, some people liked it. I thought, it wasn’t bad. But it really drifts really… I thought that was a great branding thing. Yeah! So yeah, they did a great job.
FP: 37:47 Yeah, I mean, I suppose the question is if it wasn’t Socean, what would you call this? Any ideas? I mean, we’re taking suggestions from the…
Ben: 37:59 Why don’t we do another trivia question for this?
FP: 38:01 Trivia Question number 2.
Ben: 38:06 Alright, here we go. Trivia number 2. What should Socean new name be? Jerked Finance. It’s already more than… I don’t know. EggPanned Kingdom. No, egg pan! Wait, is an egg pan… Is he a user on your community? It seems like…
FP: 38:25 He’s our co-founders.
Ben: 38:31 Okay! Your names are funny. Trunk finance. That’s pretty good. Baby Friendly DeFi.
FP: 38:44 How did you come up with a Jupiter?
Ben: 38:49 I mean; all credit goes to Ming. But I mean, we’re the same team behind Mercurial. So, it’s playing into that whole planetary-planet thing.
FP: 39:04 That makes sense. Yeah.
Ben: 39:07 It’s funny. I think we did a lot of different names. And we just kept coming back to that, I think.
FP: 39:12 So. I think, Jupiter is a great name, I guess, my question would be like, do you have SEO problems when someone google Jupiter Finance or Jupiter?
Ben: 39:23 You know what? To be honest, I haven’t checked recently. And I mean, I don’t even know if that was even a factor into our thing. Because, basically, our URL is jup.ag.
FP: 39:36 I love the URL. That’s perfect.
Ben: 39:38 Yeah! I mean, it’s a great URL. But we’ve definitely have this… I don’t think we’ve had a consistent name across everything. So, our Twitter handle is Jupiter exchange. We call ourselves Jupiter aggregator. The URL is jup.ag. So honestly, if you find us… I mean, you got to be a good… That’s probably half the game is just finding us. If you know, you know! If you don’t, well, i don’t know.
FP: 40:09 The URL… I just want to say that your URL is so good. Typing jup.ag is so quick. I feel so good when I type in.
Ben: 40:16 That’s also to make… Mingnism is good. But it’s actually a natural thing to say, anyway. Jump!
FP: 40:33 Yeah, I liked it.
Ben: 40:34 Yeah, it’s cool. It’s totally cool. Alright! So, you guys, should pick a name! We should pick a winner here. And I don’t think, it should be “Wet ass Finance.” “Soldesert”. I don’t know.
FP: 40:54 Oh! this sounds bad. I mean, you don’t want to be associated with… Nothing goes there.
Ben: 41:00 I kinda like something around… I don’t know. It is Asian to me, called dollar pool. That’s funny. Sand Dollar pool. I don’t know.
FP: 41:09 Anyway, there is a really cash.io I mean, to me, it sounds, not really nice. I guess some people like it.
Ben: 41:19 Well, it’s like, Cashio. I mean, I feel.
FP: 41:22 That’s what I mean. Like Cashio. Yeah.
Ben: 41:24 Yeah, it feels more like hip hop. It’s not like, straight up cash. It’s like little fun and a little edgy. I guess, you could just add IO to anything and be like…
FP: 41:39 Can we take a rain check on picking a name. Because I don’t want to commit to…
Ben: 41:44 No! I mean, you’re not committing to a name. Just pick…We need to pick a winner though. You can just pick something that makes you laugh or something that’s funny. I mean, if you want to pick, I love…
FP: 41:57 Can you pick a name. I’m overwhelmed.
Ox_Sloaf: 42:02 I saw one of the comments said, Sky Finance. I thought that sounded really cool. For ocean…
Ben: 42:09 Oh yeah! Okay. All right. Cool. Let’s give it to Evo. Good job, man. I mean, we got you!
Ox_Sloaf: 42:18 Yeah! It’s weird. Because startup advice is always name and logo doesn’t matter. You shouldn’t spend too long on it. But now we are thinking after we have launched, we’re like, maybe we should have spent a little bit more time thinking about it.
Ben: 42:31 Yeah! I mean, I go back and forth on these things, too. Probably the answer is that if you become massive, it doesn’t matter. If you don’t, then it kinda does matter. Or maybe, it’s not even in between. It could be like that that if you have something that is like there is a quality range… If you have something that is decent enough. It’s okay. I don’t really matter. But if you have something that either maps to some other meaning or maps to some other competitor or does something else, then it does matter. There’s some “weird yoke”! I am distracted by these names. Alright! And then, we’re going to give… So, let me, announce the winner of the first trivia question. I think, we’ll just give that to the first person, which was, “ButterBoss”. Alright. ButterBoss, congratulations! So, for everyone who doesn’t know, if you win at the trivia, we do special collab NFTs that we’ll be sending out too everyone. So…
FP: 43:47 Very cool!
Ben: 43:49 Yeah, we’ve got really talented artists in our community that work on these things. And its pretty fun. So, look out. And the nice thing is that they’re pretty limited edition. So, they’re given out to 2 winners. And we’ve got people who have collected quite a bit. I mean, who are good at this trivia thing. I almost feel like we need to retire a couple of time because they’re too good. Cool. So, maybe, we’ll switch back to a couple other questions. Yeah, I noticed that you guys have NFT’s. I mean, I feel like a lot of DeFi protocols are starting to incorporate NFT’s and actually even add some utility to them. Do your current NFTs… How do they work? Or is there utility to them? What was you thinking about creating them? Why they’re called Pathfinder?
FP: 44:48 Sure! Okay, Let’s start with, why they are called pathfinder? So Pathfinders, because we gave them out to the first 3000 users. And we just airdrop them. We didn’t promise anything. We didn’t like, announce it, we just like airdropped it. And it was really just a thank you to users who were one of the first stay with us, who believed in us when we were not super established. And we didn’t mean for them to have utility. I think, the idea really, is to use these NFT’s as a way to incentivize behavior that we want to see and we want to encourage the community. Because you know people are motivated by all sorts of things apart from money or tokens. For example, Stack Overflow. For example, I use it all the time. They have these little badges, reputation, and all these things that you can earn for answering questions or doing things that… Basically, they want to encourage. So, we want to do the same thing, which is that… For example, if someone’s making like posts regularly in the forums and good high quality posts, then we want to give them a special NFT to say. Hey! this guy is really a contributor and, that was really the idea. But I think the nice thing about this is that you can then get some things on behind it. So, you can add some utility to NFT’s. So, one thing that you could do is that you could, for instance, gate, purely hypothetically speaking, where you can gate your IDO behind the NFT. For example, you could give extra voting power to someone with lots of NFT’s. Because this guy has proven that he has that reputation. Yeah! So really… And also, I think, NFT’s just make it a little bit fun. I mean, I’m sure you know because you’ve given all these NFT’s. But it’s just a little thank you. And it doesn’t cost us anything. But I think, I mean, of course, it costs us development time and stuff like that. But it really is just a token of appreciation for us… I would be a bit wary about giving too much utility to the NFTs. Because I think that’s not the vibe we’re going for. I’m not giving these NFTs and getting people like really greedy about it waiting for the NFTs to 10x or something. That’s not really the behavior I want to encourage. But I really want people to appreciate the NFT’s for what they are, and not being super speculative on it. If that makes sense.
Ben: 47:25 So, it is nothing as The GenesysGo NFTs kinda thing?
FP: 47:30 Yeah! I mean, I thought that was brilliant. I have nothing against that IDO movement. But I think, I see no reason basically to gate tokens behind 500, or 1,000 holders.
Ben: 47:48 Yeah, I think. I mean, personally, I think it’s… I like seeing what other people are doing. Because I feel, this is a new… I agree that…I think you could get into trouble if you don’t… If you’re giving a lot of utility and not understanding the downstream consequences of what of the utility you’re giving. But I’m like, I think, it’s cool to see people try things. And I’m really curious to see what happens, and to learn from these experiments. And so for us, a lot of the… I mean, for us, the way we see the NFT’s, even though, they don’t have any utility, they’re actually incredibly important in terms of just recognizing good contributors and good community members. And I hope, people who do get them really see that. And I mean, back to what you said earlier in terms of some of the problems or some of the reasons why you created social streams. I think, one of the challenges for any project is to identify who your believers are, who your who your good contributors are, who your core community is. And it’s really important for community focused projects. And actually, it’s one reason why for us in our community, roles are earned. They’re not just given and they’re not… A lot of people come in and say, Hey! I’ve been I’ve joined since the very beginning. I’d like to get a role.
FP: 49:34 And it cost nothing to join a server.
Ben: 49:36 Yeah! It’s a really cost nothing. Yeah. And, I don’t think we… It’s not like we’re imposing a lot of barriers or anything. We just ask really simple things to help to contribute to be a part of the community. And, if you do like, like it and we reward people who really do contribute well. Because it’s important. We want to know who these people are. I think, other people want to know who these people are. And actually, we’re really thankful. We’re really grateful to people who have… A lot of our partnerships have come together because of the good people and the community. And actually, that’s for us… I think, we’re just getting a little bit beyond the NFTs. But NFTs are just not for identifying these people, but these people also end up… They’re starting to shape where Jupiter is going or what partnerships we do. And I’d like to see in the future for us, for the community to be even more impactful, to have more of influence where Jupiter goes. So, our long term intention is to go towards a Dow. And so, I see us getting there step-by-step as we get more people who contribute more and give more to us. And we’re just open about that. So, I think, it’s cool.
FP: 51:19 I guess; this is a little bit technical. And I mean, we don’t have to talk about it. But do you know Vitalik from Ethereum? He has spoken a little bit about problems with pure token voting in adult. And I think, it’s possible. I mean, I only have like very early ideas here. But I think, it’s possible that reputation and NF T’s could be a way to weigh these votes to make sure that it’s not pure token voting, which we know has a lot of problems with it.
Ben: 51:46 Yeah, I am very curious about that, too. I think. Actually, I saw Twitter spaces on DAO governance. And I forgot the word… I think, Sunny Agarwal was saying, calling it, Bribery. I don’t know. I forgot the word.
FP: 52:10 I mean; the Bribery works with the LPs. So, you buy Saber, you lock it up? And then you vote for like… We vote for the LP. How Saber tokens are emitted.
Ben: 52:22 Yaah. And I think, there is this theme of trend of doing these things… It’s like trying to stack more incentives to get people to get people to do things you want them to do. I don’t know. I feel like, it lacks the thing that you’re talking about, which is long term thinking. What happens after all this? How is this good over the long term?
FP: 52:52 I think; it is a zero-sum game. Which is that… I mean, if everybody bribes, then nobody bribes.
Ben: 52:59 Yeah!
FP: 53:00 I mean, I think, the bribing thing is a really good idea. And it makes sense individually for every project to do it, in a need to incentivize the emissions. But I don’t know. You’re absolutely right about long term thing. What happens then, when the bribes run off? Yeah, I do worry about that.
Ben: 53:20 And the weird thing is… This is a bit meta. This goes back to where you’re talking about, which is Positive Sum DeFi. How can it be something that where everyone benefits? Because it’s not altruism. We all want to benefit. But it’s not bribery, or it’s not zero sum. It’s not people one side competing or other people losing or something. So, it’s interesting, this is why, I think your Positive Sum is appealing. Because it’s… On one aspect, you don’t really want mercenary behavior, or mercenary community members. But on the other side, look, this is not like an altruistic thing. We’re all here to really change financial futures, and growth. We are trying everyone to win. So, it’s interesting.
FP: 54:19 I mean, I think, you’re absolutely right. It’s not altruism. We’re here to make money. Everybody’s here to make money. But why don’t we all make money together? Why are we fighting over the scraps? So, things like bribing, exclusivity deals, these are things that I’m not a super fan of. So, I would never do that myself. But I mean, I can see why people do it.
Ben: 54:39 Yeah. I’m going to switch a little bit to some of the committee questions. So, Eggpan has compiled a list. So, I think, it’d be good to go through them. Thanks for the list eggpan. So, I think probably one of the questions maybe we should talk about is that… Actually, people are curious whether or not we’re planning on doing integration.
FP: 55:05 Oh yeah, absolutely. I think like Jup.ag is perfect. I think, for example, one of the things we’re thinking about, what if you could stake in any currency apart from Sol. Basically I think that would make the UX pretty good. Yeah. So, Ben reached out to us early, we looked at the product. We’ve been using it for months. I mean, we’ve been using it for a long time. And we really liked it. So when he was like, hey! let’s do integration. We were like, Yeah, sure! It’s a no brainer for us. Yeah. So, yes, the answer is yes.
Ben: 55:39 Awesome. I can’t, I can’t wait. I know, you guys have a few really important things to get through. But I think…
FP: 55:46 I’d have to do the launches of the IDO first. But…
Ben: 55:49 Yeah! For sure do the IDO. I think that’s incredibly important. And something… Look, I’m personally excited for you guys. I love your thinking. I love your approach. I think, you’ve got to put together a good mechanism. So, I’m really curious to see how it goes. I’m really excited for you guys. So, thank you. Yeah! No rush, man. Actually, just speaks to our approach to partnerships and our approach in general… It’s just not like, I think about personal learning is just that whenever we tend to rush things, whether it’s an IDO or a partnership, it just doesn’t end up working right. People have different timelines. And it takes time to really figure out what are the right things to do? And so, I mean, there’s no rush for to do an integration or do… People should do it in the right time and place.
FP: 56:48 Yeah. 100%
Ben: 56:49 Yeah. And that hopefully makes for better long term relationships. Hopefully, we’re all be working together years from now and growing together… And it’s not a… This rush to build momentum and pop something that’s just going to go dump later on… Okay! Interesting. So, one of the other questions that might be interesting is, do you… I don’t know, if it’s, for both of us or for just you. But maybe, we could both answer. They ask, would you consider moving beyond Solana? Or it’s just Solana where you think you’ll be long term?
FP: 57:44 Good question, why don’t you go first?
Ben: 57:49 So, I would say for us, the way I see it is that, medium-term. I mean, long term, you never know! But medium term, even if we do things that are… We have talked about that we are working with certain partners to enable more cross chain behaviors, but our current thinking really, is that… I mean, Selena is going to be the hub of all… In multi-chain world, Solana will be the hub, in which a lot of assets will flow into and out, partly because I think a lot of people want to take advantage of the low gas fees, and the high transaction speed. But also a lot of the great DeFi that’s being built. So, all the structured products, all the derivatives trading… There’s a lot of great stuff going on. And it’s super cheap to really get started and try those things out. And I think, people will want… And this is why, I’m pretty bullish. I think, people will be moving assets out of Ethereum into Solana’s to take advantage of these things.
FP: 59:01 And if you guys are swapping… Why would you swap on Ethereum?
Ben: 59:07 I don’t know. I have no idea anymore. I rarely even do anything over there. So, I think, the way we see it that Solana is still the hub. We want to help facilitate things to come in and out of Solana. But it’s not like… I don’t think, we would at least in the mid- terms build homes and other chains. But you never know in the long term. But that’s how we’re seeing things now.
FP: 59:38 Yeah, I would agree with you. I mean, my personal bias is that I’m bullish on Solana. And I think, Solana is going to grow. But yeah, I would never say never. But probably not ETH. I think like Lionel has said like stake pool will be pre-lockdown. But I completely agree what you said about… If all the DeFi products are going to be in Solana anyway, is there really a point in moving cross-chain? So I definitely, echo what you said in the medium term. Yeah! And I think, we are still in early days. Like, if you look at all the stake pools combined, together we maybe have 10% of all stake sol. So, it really is pie can grow like 10x. Maybe, let’s worry about that when we get to 100%.
Ben: 1:00:22 Yeah! Good point. It’s really good point. All right. Well, I don’t even understand some of these questions. I think, people from your community are probably… But FP and Sloaf’s, One Max rep for bench and squat. Is that a thing? Is that a question? I think that’s a shift.
FP: 1:00:44 I don’t know. It’s just asking us how much we can lift basically. Yeah.
Ben: 1:00:49 Oh I mean, you guys share that in your community? Is that something… I don’t know… Is that an inside joke? I don’t know. Okay! Someone has also asked, how did you come up with the amazing UI for your website?
FP: 1:01:14 Thank you. Go on!
Ox_Sloaf: 1:01:17 I think, over Socean… one, UI is probably something that we spend a lot of time thinking about. And I wouldn’t call our current UI super fantastic, anything that game changing. But we have always been focusing on how exactly can we onboard most users in the easiest and simplest way possible. And that always has been our North star, when we go about like designing of UI and thinking about the entire user experience. We are launching Socean 2.0. UI pretty soon. So, keep a lookout for that. And I think that’s something that we are super proud of launching. Currently, the UI is… This is a thing, where if you are not embarrassed about your product, then you have probably spent, too long building it before launching. Then, we have definitely prioritized getting a working product out there first. So, current UI itself, it’s okay. But we are looking at launching a new UI that, I think so, put this great emphasis on onboarding the next 10 next wave of users in a very simplified and easy way.
Ben: 1:02:44 I’m curious, where do you think this new wave of users comes from? Who are they in your mind?
Ox_Sloaf: 1:02:52 Yeah, I think because of all core product being the stake pool. I think, being a stake pool is gives us a good opportunity to be an anchor on Solana. Oh I’ll see, just on any like layer one blockchains in general. When you do liquid staking, layer one proof of stake blockchain… But if you do liquid staking, I think it gives you a good chance to be an anchor on the entire ecosystem. And this next wave of users, I think, would come from new users coming onto Solana that are either like DeFi or new to the chain, or even just new to crypto in general. These users would be looking at… We want to be like, Oh! Hey, I just came to Solana. I just created my Phantom wallet or whatever… What’s the first protocol actually be looking at? And we want to be like on the top of that list. And I… This is where we think the next wave of users will come from.
Ben: 1:03:56 I’m curious. Do you do you have any thoughts on how you get on that list? Or what do you think these people are looking for? Or how to attract them?
Ox_Sloaf: 1:04:06 Yeah. I think that it’s probably like twofold. So the first fold is, we would say that most people would when you hold sol, you would want to start earning staking rewards, but at the same time, you don’t want to be so of locked up while you stake. And that’s where liquid staking comes in. So, the first vote is all functionality. So, there is no way to solve avoid socean if you want to solve that problem. So that’s the first one, and the second is our thing is like a fantastic UI. UI that’s so simple to getting onboard. These users that… It is like a no brainer that Socean is the place to go. Yeah.
Ben: 1:04:47 Awesome! Great answer. So, we’ve run out of time. I think, we’ve gone on over a little bit. So thank you, everyone, for hanging on with us. Are there any last things you want to share about your upcoming IDO or future roadmap with the community?
FP: 1:05:11 Yeah, sure. I mean, I’ll just say a couple of things quickly. So, first is that related to IDO we have a lot of like, very exciting announcements coming up very soon. And I mean, with the IDO specifically… I think, I would say, we are not trying to raise as much money as possible. We are trying to raise money from the right people. We want people who are long term holders, who will hold these tokens and consistently contribute to us for the next 1,3,5 years. If you are that person, if you believe in what we do, if you believe in our values of fairness-more than fair sol, then… I don’t know. Yeah, if you believe in us, then come and join us. If you are looking for short term Alpha, right, then this is probably not the place for you.
Ben: 1:06:05 Yeah. That’s great. I think that’s a great way to… The more than fair sale for the more than more than fair community. Awesome, man! Well, thank you for coming on. This has been wonderful. You guys have really shared a lot of really cool stuff. And thanks, everyone for attending. Great attendance! So, thank you all. Hope you all have a good day. And we’ll see you in the next one.
FP: 1:06:33 Thank you so much, Ben.
Ox_Sloaf: 1:06:35 Thanks for having us.
Ben: 1:06:36 Yep, cheers!