Jupiter x Tulip AMA

Jupiter: the key liquidity aggregator and swap infrastructure for Solana

Jupiter AMA with Senx (https://twitter.com/senx_t) from Tulip Protocol (12/28/21)
Learn more about Tulip’s upcoming plans and about the connections between the two projects.

AMA Transcript

Ben Chow (Jupiter): Hey, how ya doing man?

Senx (Tulip): I’m good. How are you?

BC: I’m good. I’m good. This is actually one of the few AMAs that’s not super early for me. Usually, it’s literally the first thing I do when I get up, I actually call it the breakfast wake up. All right. Thanks, everyone for coming. We’ve got a great turnout and I’m here with Senx from Tulip, one of the few people actually I’ve met in Solana in person. Really loved the ecosystem and the other projects. It’s cool to have you on stage here and with our community.

Senx: Thanks for having me.

BC: All right. To kick this off I pretty much ask everyone the same question. If you could introduce yourself and share how you started Tulip, that would be amazing.

Senx: So as you guys know, I’m Senx from Tulip, We used to be called Solfarm, pretty early on. We started the project back in March, so we thought there was a big product fit during that time. I think during that time there weren’t that many projects. Saber was still called Stableswap, and then there was Raydium and then Serum, and then I think Mercurial was just getting started then too.

BC: I feel like we were in the same class there.

Senx: Yeah, that was interesting back in the day and it’s kind of nice to see how much bigger the space and the ecosystem has grown in the past year. Definitely, something cool to see. And, you know, it’s nice to have more options to mess around and try new stuff.

How Senx got into Solana [00:02:48]

BC: Yeah. I’ve been totally blown away about how quickly things have grown and all the cool new things coming up. I’m kind of curious, what got you into Solana? How did you know [about it], what were you doing before?

Senx: I mean, I’ve always been a big farmer on Ethereum. You know, I grew up farming on Ethereum back when WildFire first started everything. So to me farming on the chain is always something that’s interesting. And then noticing that there was nothing to actually farm properly on Solana kind of like, you know…me and my co-founder, we kinda hit a spark and it was just like, ‘Hey, you know, we should build a solution instead of trying to wait for a solution to come up.’ So, it’s kind of the idea starting so far like that.

BC: Nice. Nice. Did you also have some learning curve pains in going from Ethereum to Solana, in terms of rust or developing on the chain?

Senx: Yeah. I mean, like in terms of developing, I think everyone has that issue for us where it’s like the TX limits. That’s probably the biggest thing. Like in an Ethereum chain, you can fit in as much crap as you want. You just pay more gas. Right. Whereas here you have to optimize all your calls and try to have them all one TX, but sometimes you can’t and then it just, you know…people complain they use our leverage farming, we’ve had situations where people are like ‘the TX isn’t going through’, but it turns out that they just didn’t realize that they’d signed five TXs in a row.

BC: Oh, wow. That’s so interesting.

Senx: Yeah, so if you’re not using a hardware wallet like a ledger, it doesn’t matter. Cause Phantom or Sollet will just do it for you. But if you’re using a ledger, you’ve got to tap on the right button five times and confirm, and do those five times in a row and you have to do it in under a minute. Otherwise, all the TXs in a row will not be valid. It’s a little bit annoying, but once people get to learn, it’s not too bad. It doesn’t really cost you anything if your TXs fail.

BC: Yeah. Actually, I think that’s the one thing that I’ve been loving about Solana is because the gas fees are so low, all these failed transactions don’t hurt as much and you can just experiment more and try things more and not have to think too hard. I didn’t realize you were stringing together five or so transactions. I’ve been kind of curious how people [do that]. For us, we’ve had to do a lot of work to try to keep everything under one transaction to keep the edge cases down. But it also makes it easier for approvals. I was kind of curious if you saw that a lot of people are bothered by all these transactions or checking or maybe they didn’t care. I guess once they get used to it’s okay. They just keep clicking the approvals.

Senx: Yeah once you get used to it it’s fine. But sometimes you just got to let people know that’s all you need to do.

BC: Or maybe people just do the auto-approval. I’ve yet to do that. I wonder if people are doing that.

Senx: Well, I hope not. I mean, as convenient as it can be it’s not a good habit to get into. The habits are what build-ups to the big mistake. It only takes one mistake in the DeFi space to get wrekt basically.

Security and accountability [00:07:07]

BC: I’m going to diverge a little bit here, but I was trying out the Phantom beta, the wallet, and I feel like there’s this eternal balance of convenience and security. I was telling them cause they made it so that you can copy and paste your private key to import your Phantom wallet onto their mobile app. You know if you use copy and paste, the pasteboard is available to any app to read into? I think people take the approach of ‘well you shouldn’t do it’, but we keep it there…I just feel people do it anyway because it’s easier.

Senx: Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s how I feel about things is if it’s available, people will usually use it. It’s not about not giving people options, but more like railroading them to the best available option for them. Cause some people just don’t know better, and it takes a bit of education.

BC: I’m sort of in agreement because I think we, with Mercurial, we had tried to do a lot with educating outside of the product, you know, giving people the freedom to do what you want to do, and we’ll educate you on the best thing. But I feel like it’s hard. Not everyone sees that education…I’ve been actually surprised how much people just go go all in without fully educating themselves. And then I think this time around with Jupiter we’re trying to put more education or more rails to inform or protect people in the product itself.

Senx: Yeah, it’s definitely a good thing to do. Even throughout the past year, we’ve had cases where people come to us, they’re like, ‘We got hacked, all our tokens got transferred out. Is there any way we could retrieve funds that were locked in the protocol?’ So they had stuff that’s farming on Tulip, but they couldn’t access it because every time they sent some to that account, it just gets withdrawn.

BC: No!

Senx: It’s really sad. I’m not really not sure what to do. It’s a little bit complex. And it’s not a precedent that I really want to set. We could theoretically help you retrieve it, but that’s a really centralized move. It’s hard to discern every time who’s telling the truth or not too. Some guy could just be like, ‘Hey, you know, this wallet is mine, I got hacked’, but there’s no way you can verify it too. It’s not like there’s any signing protocol that you could do right now. Like if you’re with us, sign a message. I could be wrong.

BC: You know, actually I, I’ve struggled with this too, because I’ve actually spent time personally helping people who got hacked. I think I spent one time two hours with someone educating them, and at the end of it, I was like, ‘I think you should, you should start slow. You don’t seem to know some of the basic stuff. And I would recommend having a burner wallet and maybe start with some small funds and try things out, you know, and learn.’ And then this guy, the guy tells me ‘I’m already seven figures in your pool, man. And by the way, if I lose it all, I’m going to go on suicide watch.’ And I was like, ‘Oh shit, dude!’ Like…

Senx: Unnecessary disclosure, and pressure.

BC: Yeah. So I, I’ve been sort of torn personally about what’s the level of support and service to give. And just recently I was talking with someone who had had this really great way of saying it, which was that crypto is about extreme accountability. You’re really responsible for the decisions you make whereas I feel like, you know, society helps protect people in general. If you make a mistake, you can always call customer service and complain about it and get a refund or something. That’s a lot harder to do in crypto. I thought it was pretty refreshing. Maybe we should be accountable for our decisions, you know? And if you don’t want to do your own research or read up or understand what you’re doing, you may pay consequences.

It made me think about unlocking the next wave of crypto users or DeFi users, you know, maybe we need to do more of what the CeFi world is doing, right? Have more protections in place. I’m sure people are going to do that anyway, but I don’t know. I just thought that mindset was kind of cool. It was kind of interesting.

Senx: Yeah. People ask if there’s anything we can do, I’m like, no, the TX is sent, we can’t reverse the chain!

BC: Yeah! It’s so interesting. Yeah. The way I think about it too, cause I always feel bad about it, the nice thing with crypto is it’s all opt-in, right? No one is forcing you to live in this world this way, you know? And if you want to have access to the benefits, you should definitely own up to the results of your decisions.

Senx: Yeah. There is no free lunch. You can’t expect to make X amount without risking Y.

Changing from Solfarm to Tulip [00:14:54]

BC: Yeah. For sure. This is a small question. What made you want to change from Solfarm to Tulip? What was the reason driving the renaming?

Senx: Solfarm was a pretty lazy name at the start. It was just Solana farming protocol, and we shortened it to Solfarm. At the time we obviously weren’t as committed as now. It was a pet project that got pretty far, I’ll be real honest. So after seeing how well everything was going, we decided that it needed a more recognizable brand and a more cohesive brand too. Cause our token was Tulip. I feel a lot of people knew the token, but not the name. They’d get kind of get confused sometimes, which is why we thought it’s better to just unify the whole brand and just call it Tulip protocol instead.

BC: Oh, nice. That’s really cool. That makes a lot of sense because people really lock in on the token, all their attention is on that. And then to bring that back to the branding on the protocol and make it cohesive…I think it’s pretty smart, man.

Senx: Yeah. It’s definitely something that was…we’d look at users coming into the discord or Telegraph, it was something we’d noticed, so we thought it was better to get it out of the way and make it look better too.

BC: Nice. Nice. You know, I feel like every time I check you guys out, you’ve got something new and cool out. Your website is like, super refreshed. And I love some of the tools you’re doing. Is there anything in particular that you’re pretty proud of or that has just come out that you want to chat about?

Latest updates from Tulip [00:17:00]

Senx: Well, the latest one is something that we thought was really cool. The pro position simulator thing. And then we also added the dual borrow to make it easier for people to farm Delta neutral. So I thought that was pretty cool and adds a little bit more usability. I think we have some other cool stuff coming out too…well, the things that I’ve noticed is that we’ve been really known for leveraged yield farming but we’re going back to our roots and doing what we set out to do, which is actually a managed vault. Where people deposit tokens like USDC then we do manage strategies for them. So that’s coming up soon ™.

BC: Oh, wow. That’s awesome. That’s really cool. , I mean, do you want to talk a little bit about the manager, like what strategies you’re gonna…?

Senx: Well at the start it’s gonna be something basic because it’s still quite limited as to what we can do sadly. But yeah, you guys will see.

BC: Yeah. Okay. I mean, that sounds pretty freaking cool, man. I didn’t actually realize that that was originally you, we were intending to do with Tulip, having a managed vault thing. I think I like everyone else was thinking, oh yeah, leveraged farming, man.

Senx: Yeah. Well, leveraged farming is catchy. You see a tweet, all these screenshots of billions of APY, you know…it’s not, obviously, I get it, they see a big number and they’re like, oh, I gotta ape. So that’s a little different. But I think in terms of sustainable yield, I think a managed vault is always going to be the premier tool for on-chain farming.

BC: That’s awesome, man. I agree actually. I think the sustainable yield is the way to go. A lot of the farming stuff we’ve seen recently, it’s getting a little too crazy. I feel like the mechanics for a lot of protocols don’t work as well because of all this farming. Everyone’s chasing after these high APYs.

Senx: Yeah, the yield farming can fuck with tokenomics, obviously, especially for like stuff like GameFi. You want your token to go up, but at the same time, if you have game stuff locked behind a paywall via your token, then it’s kind of counterintuitive, right? Cause it just makes it expensive to play your game too.

BC: Yeah, totally. It’s going to be interesting to see how people make a game accessible and build up their tokens. I think it just adds another layer of managing the economics of the game. How do you keep it accessible yet have a really good token with yield?

Senx: Yeah. I feel like some of these products will probably end up redoing their tokenomics down the line to make it more aligned with the game itself rather than investors and farmers.

Community questions [00:21:00]

Does Tulip have any other big plans to capture more TVL in the future?

Senx : Yeah, I think the managed vaults is a big one and then we’re trying to do borrowing as well. Cause right now you can just lend but not borrow, so instead of just having leverage farmers, we can also borrow natively…I mean, it’s taking a little bit longer because our UI team is just really backed up on everything. Then we also have to add another liquidator to it so seeing a little bit longer, but I think it’s going to be good once it comes out because it will be the only place you can get borrowing against your shitcoin.

BC: You came out and said it, shitcoin! There you go.

Senx: Yeah. At the same time because of leverage farming, we tend to pay higher than market borrowing rates, lending rates. Even if you’re borrowing slightly more expensive here, they’ll probably be offset by the lending APY that you’re getting anyways.

BC: Oh, that’s a really cool insight. I didn’t actually realize that, that makes a lot of sense actually. Do you think more lending protocols might do what you’re doing? I feel like people are adding different things.

Senx: Yeah, I think so. We had an AMA with Solend and they said they’re going to do some other lending products, like isolated pools, which I think is pretty cool. That’s basically like Rari on Ethereum, that’s nice, cause I used to farm a lot on Rari. It basically lets you put risky assets into a bundle so they don’t affect the main lending pools, which is nice.

Trivia [00:23:30]

BC: Oh, yeah, that’s pretty cool. I’m going to switch…we do a trivia in between our talks and the AMA. And so I’m going to do our first trivia. we’re just going to make it fun because, you know, that’s how we roll.

Senx: Sounds good.

BC: All right, guys…and as always, for the trivia, winners get a special NFT. Our NFT artist has been a little under the weather, so we’re behind on some of them, but we usually work on some collab NFTs. So we’ll do a Jupiter-Tulip collab NFT and give that to the winners.

Here’s the first trivia question. We’ll make it easy.

All right, here we go. The question is out. So for this first trivia, we do the most wrong answer version of trivia at times. So, trivia question number one is ‘What is the most wrong answer for why Solfarm rebranded to Tulip’…because he likes flowers. Oh, that’s pretty good…so they could tiptoe through the Tulip. I don’t know, Lamari! To sell tissue papers. Pretty decent…

The way this works is you just pick whichever answer you think is the most fun or most wrong and we’ll give that to the winner.

Senx: So these are kind of the right answers. The whole tulip name was kind of a meme on the Dutch tulip bubble.

BC: Oh, really, it was a meme?

Senx: Yeah, it was kind of like the meaning behind that. Some people got mad at us ‘cause it’s not a very nice connotation’ or ‘it’s not serious’, but it’s whatever. We don’t take ourselves too seriously.

BC: Yeah. Dude, I love that about you. Honestly, if people care, if they’re mad, they care, maybe? I don’t know.

Senx: I mean, it’s such a minor thing to be upset about. I don’t think it’d be a major deal-breaker that because ‘X is called something’… it’s not…something that should be super controversial.

BC: Yeah. Actually, we had a great AMA with Mean and I’ve shared with everyone that we have intentions to make Jupiter into a DAO. So I think about how do we get there? Right. I love talking to people who’ve made that transition and I think Mean has done an amazing job. In fact, Kotaro is also with Mean helping them with the video production. I’ve been super impressed and I really, what resonated with me in that other AMA was what Michelle said. They had originally just shared some documents on their plans for what they wanted to do. And it was just a shitty version of it. And then people got mad at that. People literally got mad at them, you know, like it was like, ‘this is stupid, right’. Or whatever it was, I’m probably saying it wrong. People got mad because it seemed dumb. And then they co-opted all the people who are angry and said, ‘okay, help us make this better’. And I was like, this is the most brilliant thing I’ve ever heard. Get people angry and then get them making it better for you. And that to me formed the core of the Mean community. I mean, I could be wrong, but it seemed like from my talk with them, I was like, wow, that sounds so good.

Senx: I’m trying to pick one, right? Let’s see. So many…I like this one.

BC: Tulips require water representing Tulip’s new approach to maintenance.

Senx: Low maintenance, like a single touch process.

BC: Nice. These are creative answers. All right. Congrats Paintedigloo, you are our first trivia winner.

Why is that not every vault is a leverage farm? [00:28:55]

Senx: I got it. Yeah, I can see what you mean. The thing is for us, we try not to have too low liquidity for a vault. Our base point is usually around six mil in liquidity, otherwise, we feel people are just gonna ape in and they’re gonna get wrekt by slippage or poor execution. Depending on how much you’re borrowing, you might have to make swaps sometimes and people can sometimes get wrekt on that because when they open, it’s just a little liquidity [so] they’re opening bigger than they would think to. And then it just makes for a very poor UX because people just don’t know. Right?

BC: Yeah, totally. One of the major reasons why people have gotten wrekt on Mercurial is that they see the high APYs on the formation of the pool, and they just go all in and unbalance the pool, and then…they just totally get wrekt when someone comes in and rebalances it. And basically, the rewards for rebalancing come from the people who are unbalancing really. So is there a process when it hits 6 million, you just wait for it to grow to a certain point, and then when it does, you turn on leverage for that?

Senx: Yeah. We just add it after.

BC: Yeah. Oh, that’s cool. That’s smart. 6 million. That’s a pretty hard number, I think.

Senx: Yeah. At the same time, the lower liquidity stuff, they tend to be higher in volatility too. Because they’re usually altcoins or whatever. So if you add on leverage, people ape around bigger than they should be using positions, and then the price swing will just end up liquidating people.

BC: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense.

Jupiter collaboration and partnership with Tulip [00:31:36]

BC: Gosh, we have a lot of people. I’m just scanning for questions from the community. A few people have asked about our collaboration and partnership. Do you want to talk about potential Jupiter integrations or ideas?

Senx: The first thing we will probably do is integrate Jupiter’s swap to a page on Tulip. That’s probably the easiest thing for us to do right now. We’ve been looking to use Jupiter’s swap instead of Raydium, but it’s a little difficult right now because as you said, the route optimization does take up a good amount of TX space. So if we had to add it onto our own TXs it’s kind of hard because you literally run out of space. We’re still looking into it.

BC: Yeah. I think that’s definitely one of the biggest problems. I hope Solana increases their limits soon because I mean this kind of composability…I think it would be amazing, but I don’t know. It’s pretty hard. We’re right up to the limit, actually, for our aggregation.

Senx: Yeah. It’s a little tough to do for us. I think they have the TX feed coming out soon-ish, so hopefully, that’ll help a little bit.

Why is impermanent loss more than the standard IL calculations on Tulip? [00:33:26]

BC: So, Mr. Sohail94 has asked…this is a pretty detailed question… why is it permanent loss more than the standard IL calculations on Tulip? I was farming CAVE/USD and it doubled in price. IL should be around 6%, but it was around 20%. I am using no leverage.

Senx: That’s pretty much impossible because we don’t use our own impermanent loss calculations. If you’re farming CAVE/USDC it’s just literally Raydium LP tokens. So we don’t have any input or control over the IL. So it’s literally not related to us. It’d be the exact same if you were farming at Raydium, except that we sell your CAVE/USDC into some USDC and then just add it on. That’s all that it does. There’s no difference from putting LP tokens on Raydium otherwise.

BC: That’s what I thought actually. But thanks for clarifying. That’s really helpful. We’ve had similar confusions too…this is good to have a good education. We’re having people constantly pushing good education, but I remember one of the people I was helping out that had suffered a lot of loss. I think it was a six-figure loss because they had aped in early in the pool and they had imbalanced the pool. I feel like there’s an internal struggle where we show these high APY numbers, people ape in without really knowing and then they have like these high-level impressions of like, you know, ‘stable pool is no risk, no im-permanent loss’. And they had this other misunderstanding, that somehow when they do a one-sided deposit, we would rebalance for them. Auto rebalancing, you know? And I had to tell them there’s no auto-rebalancing. The tokens have to come from somewhere. It’s incentivizing other people to balance the pool by giving out your tokens, that’s how it gets rebalanced. There’s no other way to balance it, you know?

Senx: Yeah, we’re just using the external infrastructure. We’re just building on top of that infrastructure. So in terms of that part, it’s not related to us.

BC: Which I think honestly what you do is simple, but it’s a great value add and I think you’ve done a great job on the UI. It makes it really easy. I think it’s one of the easiest farming UIs out there. I feel like in general, Solana farm projects have a better UI,

Senx: Having the UI being clear helped. It just saves us time for support issues.

Are there any plans for Tulip to integrate with other platforms? [00:37:14]

BC: Someone has asked, ‘So Tulip now has three platforms integrated Orca, Saber, and Ray. Is there any other plans to integrate others besides the three?

Senx: Yeah we do, but we’re just holding everything off until we launch our V2 infrastructure. We should be doing that in the next couple of weeks.

BC: Oh, nice. Do you want to talk more about the V2 infrastructure?

Senx: It’s being a bit hyped up in the community. I’m not sure why. If we don’t announce anything, no one’s going to actually notice as it’s just a different structure of the vaults. It’s a lot more optimized than our first vault program because we learned a lot more since we started. It lets us do more vaults. For example, we weren’t able to do double-dips back then because of certain limitations on the vault itself. We’ve basically optimized and made space for structures like that.

BC: Nice. So it was a transaction limit kind of thing that was limiting the double-dip?

Senx: Yeah, we just couldn’t optimize the TX and just kept hitting limits. So we gave up and just decided to do it after we re-architectured…

BC: Oh, that’s cool. Well then actually, that should be a pretty big deal for V2, right?

Senx: Yeah. I mean, you will be able to add a lot more stuff. We’ll also make it easier to integrate like other farming venues.

BC: Yeah, we spent a lot of time on optimization and I’ve actually been surprised how much…how important it is to actually work with other projects with optimization. Cause it’s taken a bunch of iterations to be able to fit all different routes for us. We finally have full coverage across Solana, for all routes, but one of the last ones that we couldn’t fit initially in the transaction was Raydium->Raydium. Cause [it] was pretty big…but what unlocked it for us was I got on a call with Raydium and they were sharing more information about their program instructions. And it just turned out that one of their arguments was optional. So that saved up just enough space for us to fit these extra routes. I was kinda surprised. I mean, the reason I am sharing this, is that you don’t know these things, You really have to talk to some of the projects to understand how their instructions work. Because a lot of people are either not open source or it’s not obvious. It actually turned out to be a pretty quick change, but it’s just we just didn’t know that it was optional. I’ve just been surprised, you know? Cause I feel like maybe it’s much easier on Ethereum. You can just look at things and figure it out.

Senx: That’s definitely a learning curve for everyone too.

BC: Yeah. I guess for me and for anyone developing out there, I feel like it’s good practice to just reach out to people and talk to them because sometimes you can be unblocked really simply just by asking a couple of questions.

Senx: Yeah. Most of the time, the devs or founders are usually happy to chat about their program anyways. It doesn’t hurt if you’re to ask.

What is Senx looking forward to in V2 of Tulip? [00:42:05]

BC: Mobyonline has asked a question. What’s your personal highlight in V2 that you’re looking forward to?

Senx: For me, it’s probably the managed vaults. I’m excited to iterate and create new strategies for that. Yeah, I think that’s the most fun for me.

BC: Is that going to be a new program?

Senx: Yeah. It’s going to be a new program. We have something on testnet that’s being tested right now.

BC: Oh, super sweet man. And it’s going to be a part of the Tulip, like as another dApp?

Senx: Yeah. It’s the part of the brand.

BC: That’s cool. I’m always curious to know how people decide to build out under the brand or do a new protocol or a new thing and how you decide on one versus the other. Cause I always feel like there is a bit of pressure to do another protocol with a new token.

Senx: Some people in the space definitely do that a lot. If that’s what works for them, that’s what works for them. The criteria would be really dependent on the function of the new protocol, but like I said, I don’t feel like you should be putting up a new protocol just because it’s a slightly defined use case rather than…some use cases can just be built-in. There’s no reason to make a new protocol for it.

BC: I mean, how do you see building out Tulip? So you’ve got leverage farming and you’ve got this managed vault. How do you see the overall goal on how you grow up and add new features? Is it eventually a one-stop-shop around farming or generating yield or something like that?

Senx: Yeah, that’s kind of the plan. We’re getting there function-wise. After this, I’m not too sure what else we could add. More iterations with the same function, I guess. I think before we have an LP, we’ll have pretty much covered most of the stuff that we wanted to do in the first place.

BC: Yeah. I actually think that what’s interesting is after this next wave…The wave that we came out came in on was getting all the basic fundamental stuff and DeFi on Solana. And then this next wave of DeFi is still a lot of the same things on Ethereum or stuff on the first level of composing or maybe a little bit more advanced, like DeFi. I’m kind of excited because I feel the next wave after that is going to be where we really start coming up with new things, that may be more unique to Solana, or whatever the value Solana brings in, and whatever people have had to build up to that point, you know? I think we might see a lot more intersections, maybe with GameFi or whatever it might be Maybe, there’s crazy. Metaverse DeFi stuff that happens. I’m not sure, but I think that might be a really interesting time.

Senx: Yeah. One of the biggest criticisms I’ve seen for Solana, is like… ‘Solana’s just copying everything off EVM’. You can’t expect the people to build on just the foundation. It’s kind of a double argument. These are all the basic stuff that every DeFi ecosystem needs. You can’t expect people to work with nothing.

BC: Yeah. I get the age-old argument it’s not original, but the thing is actually being on Solana is quite different. It could be somewhat the same or very similar to what’s going on in Ethereum, but there are a lot of very different things happening, because of the low gas fees and the transaction speeds. I think it’s one of the reasons why we’ve seen such a fast uptake in volume because as more people are building these valuable things, volume is increasing and it’s just so much easier for most people to try things out and experiment. Maybe you’re launching something and it’s still a little rough and transactions are failing and you need time to optimize. It’s not a big deal. People can do that. They can try things out. And I think that there’s so much value in that, that the whole argument of ‘oh it’s not original’ is missing out on so much that’s going on.

Senx: I agree. At the end of the day, it’s just something that’s needed in the ecosystem. I can’t see how building up the basic blocks can be a criticism, to be honest.

BC: For sure. Let me go back to another community question. So I is Virg asks a two-part question…you applied two changes to lending in the last couple of days.

Why was the lending utilization limit of 95% removed? And why did the max lending APY change on high APY coins? [00:48:41]

Senx: So for the 95% thing, we realized it was actually blocking deposits. If lending stops at 95, it can never hit a hundred, which is where the max lending APY is. So it was artificially capping it to use the lending APY, which doesn’t do anything apart from doing that. And so we ended up removing it because it was kind of counterproductive to lending and pool users. And then as for max lending APY, we didn’t actually change anything. We just changed the way it was displayed to be more accurate. Before it was just APR, but we changed it to display APY properly. We were displaying the it wrong way. People weren’t really getting it. It was kind of our fault.

BC: Oh, good. Follow-up questions. Was there a reason why you originally put the 95% limit?

Senx: So back then we put 95 because people were complaining how they couldn’t withdraw. But we just realized that some dude would just withdraw enough to put it down to a hundred and no one can withdraw. They’d have to wait for it to come down anyways. So it doesn’t actually change anything. There’ll still be a good amount of people stuck. So, if you’re gonna get stuck anyway, might as well get the high APY, right? If the pool’s big, 5% could be quite a bit. Say you’ve got 50 mil in that lending pool…5% could add up to two and a half million of borrowable liquidity that you could use.

BC: Cool. The other thing I was going to say was what’s interesting with the APY thing that you have…I’ve actually been surprised. I feel like there needs to be more of this too, in general. I think it’s cool that communities keep us honest, cause they find out things like this and they ask questions and they probe. Honestly, I am incredibly thankful for our community and anyone’s community, even projects that we work with because it’s the best way to really know what’s going on. But I have been surprised using a bunch of protocols, [where] it’s really hard to get the details like the APY and APR stuff correct. But I have been surprised at how a lot of them do stuff that looks good and it’s quick, but it’s not really accurate, you know? Always good to have a good check to make sure if a project has a good community behind it because they’ll find out. They’ll find those things for everyone, you know? I feel like a good community is kind of like good liquidity. If a token doesn’t have good liquidity, you don’t really know what’s going on. It could be some funny stuff. But if you have a strong community, they shine a really good light on some of the issues and things that are going on in a project, It makes it better.

Senx: Yeah, definitely agree with that. The APY display change was actually someone that pointed it out and, we didn’t realize that it was an issue. After reviewing it with a community member we came to the conclusion that he was right. So we changed it.

BC: Awesome. Very cool. I just want to see if anyone wanted to ask any other questions or come up. We’re already up to 142 people listening. Amazing. You guys are awesome. Do you want to ask me any questions?

What’s next for Jupiter? [00:53:38]

Senx: What’s next for Jupiter?

BC: We have some really cool…I don’t want to share too much, but we’ve been listening to the community feedback on improving the product. We have both some improvements in the UI that we’re going to be releasing sometime soon, and we’re going to be also working on some of the harder things that people have been asking for. Hope to share that soon. More along the lines of the routing and the aggregation, that tends to be the harder stuff. The UI tends to be the somewhat easier things and we’ve got some really cool things to share about that. Can’t say too much more, but it’s coming soon. I think it’s going to be really cool. We’ve got a lot of cool plans.

Senx: Definitely looking forward to it. I literally only use Jupiter nowadays, so…

BC: I feel like everyone should. There’s a lot of competition coming up. I think competition is good. We really appreciate it. And these are the subtleties that people miss. We really try to spend a lot of time making the hard stuff, like the aggregation and the routing, work fast and work well. I hope that people see those things when they’re comparing us against other protocols or projects. I think that people who know, know. But I also think about all these other people who get into the hype of the token!

Senx: There’s always going to be that group. We’re always wary to release an unpolished product, because having a polished product put out and then having users interact with it, it’ll stick in their minds more. When users use a polished product, and then they use someone else’s product, they’ll be like, ‘Hey, this doesn’t feel like, or work the same way, as X protocol.’ I think that really does better in the long run.

BC: Yeah. I think it’s one reason why our teams get along. We tend to try to get along with people who execute well and are builders. I appreciate all the different ways you can play the game and attract volume and liquidity. But I think we get along most with people who just spend the time to build good stuff.

Senx: Yeah, I agree with that.

BC: Okay. So someone asks for Jupiter, whether or not we, you know, hope to, you know, you know, the thing is, here’s, you know, you know, they’re asking, are we developing more features to keep the community to stay glued?

Is Jupiter developing more features to keep the community glued? [00:57:18]

BC: You know, I think…building our stuff is more along the lines of giving people value. I don’t think we see it as we have to keep shipping because we need more people paying attention to us versus other competitors or anything.

We truly believe that we want to build the best aggregator. We want to give people the best price. We want it to be faster cause we’re users too. I think if we keep shipping value and shipping these things, it’s good for everyone, you know? We hope that people keep seeing that, and it’s not a marketing play, we’re not trying to get more buzz and get more hype, you know? We just want to see people recognize good work, and get people excited about building things that people want.

Senx: Yeah, definitely agree with that.

BC: Why don’t we add one last question from the community…Eskimonine asks any final comments on Tulip treasury?

Final comments on Tulip treasury? [00:58:50)

Senx: That depends on what you mean by comments. We have plans for it, so we’ll probably announce it soon. Maybe two, three weeks, something like that. And then the treasury is going to get allocated based on governance. So I guess it’s like kind of like ‘wen governance’ and my answer is ‘soon’. Yeah.

BC: Awesome. I feel the same way about treasury and governance and I can’t wait. I think it’s going to be awesome for Jupiter. I think if you get in front of us and get ahead of it, I want to learn from what you guys do because I think about this all the time. I’d like to learn as much from anyone who’s doing it before us!

Senx: In terms of treasury management, I just kind of look at what Invictus doing and see who they’re partnering with. And probably thinking about ways to do that with them as well.

BC: Oh, Friktion, they’re working with Friktion.

Senx: They were Katana and Friktion, I believe.

BC: Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t realize they were balancing between two.

Senx: They have so much money that they just don’t want to keep it all on one protocol, which I think is a safety thing. Which is fair.

BC: That makes a lot of sense. I guess is that one avenue you’re thinking of going towards with the managed vaults?

Senx: Yeah, it’s possible, but we’ll just leave it closer to when we…right now we just have everything in lending, so it’s still earning some yield, but apart from that we will probably just leave it to governance.

Closing

BC: Yeah. That’s smart. Leaving it to governance is a good play man. If you get that going before us, I want to learn from you. Awesome. Thanks for coming down, it’s been a great AMA. Thanks to everyone who’s been listening in. We hit over 140 people. So this has been an amazing turnout. You guys are rocking. I like these kinds of chill ones. I think maybe the next one…one day I keep thinking we’ll either do a chicken wing one or beer one. We can all drink, just chill out. Maybe we’ll do like a round table happy hour and just hang out and shoot the shit and talk. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, everyone for listening and we’ll see you at the next one.

Senx: Thanks for having me.

BC: Awesome. All right. Cheers.

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